Vaccination to be mandatory for care home staff

[Horseyhorsey3]

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/covid-jabs-to-become-mandatory-for-care-home-staff-in-england

It will be interesting to see how this affects retention and recruitment of staff... Or not...

@DeathByWalkies

Ours didn’t even get our name in - they’ve been left blank! No sticker. But we did get the app - but again, in theory you could
allow someone else the info, unless someone asked for photo Id at the same time as checking the app.
So really not exactly a robust system in place.

I almost died when I had the MMRV vaccine, got simultaneous full blown vaccine strain infections of Mumps & Chickenpox & Meningitis. In Japan they don’t use the multiple simultaneous vaccination, they do them separately because of the seizures & deaths & other serious side effects. Yet the website ‘vaccineconfidence’ claims that these separate vaccines are not available anywhere in the WORLD. I’m lucky to have survived without serious damage, I see studies about children/teens who died after just one disseminated vaccine infection from the MMR, Mumps.

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia

Is the mindset of a typical healthcare worker in say an elderly care centre that militant to say “right that’s it I don’t do medical science so let’s all walk out, forget the vaccination” and hold the most frail and medically vulnerable to ransom. Surely this is perhaps far from in keeping with duty of care medical ethics.

Additionally, if these roles in the private care home sector are minimum wage are you not conscious that by definition other sectors would tend to offer a higher financial reward if that is your motivation?

We are now in potentially dire economic circumstances but with Brexit the UK has more direct control over immigration policies. Dare I suggest in an outward looking global Britain - should there be an overwhelming under supply of necessary trained medical care labour - that this may be (as evident from the current NHS staffing) an opportunity for others globally to be selected to join our already diverse healthcare sector where the staff original heritage is immaterial but professional care, skill and ethics are. The USA for instance (from recent memory) has looked to the Philippines for specific labour requirements.

Hard of thinking is one matter but the fact that vulnerable elderly patients are in your care and look to you for your help is another. Earlier in the pandemic it is recognised that the elderly care home sector has been negligently sacrificed. We all are get old one day! What if no one is vaccinated? What’s the game plan? Survival of the fittest?

So if we don't leave or get the vaccine we're not fit for the job, and if we do then we're holding the elderly and vulnerable to random?

Right, gotcha.

Get back in your box care workers and just do as you're told and know your place - beneath anyone else and little better than conscripts.

@Iquitit Im disgusted by some of the comments on this thread

It’s clear to me that the plethora of serious side effects from the vaccines as been well and truly buried by the government.

It’s clear to me no one gives a shit about carers. These vaccines are simply not safe for a minority and for care workers, they are being coerced. The vast majority of care workers are vaccinated anyway as are the residents - this is stealth coercion to mandatory vaccines by the government starting with the easy target.

Shame on MN etters who I bet clapped mindlessly and foolishly for these sake carers last year.

@Iquitit well said.

One can almost imagine a Victorian Mumsnet YABU/YANBU on a steam-powered interweb.

"The chimney sweep boy ruined my anti-maccasa with his dirty hands - should I withhold his penny ?"

I wonder why nobody talks about acquired immunity. In the care home where I worked and in the COVID ward most staff had it and test positive for antibodies. Why wouldn’t that count?

To a pp, the current rules still allow carers to not have a vaccine so long as they can prove they are medically exempt - so if they have a clear medical reason e.g. severe previous reactions, then they've nothing to worry abot

@SleepWhenAmDead

I wonder why nobody talks about acquired immunity. In the care home where I worked and in the COVID ward most staff had it and test positive for antibodies. Why wouldn’t that count?

That's one of those questions nobody wants to answer. It's also a very reasonable and sensible point but reason and sense were kicked into touch months ago.

Can someone who is defending these measures explain to me why a tradesman visiting a care home must be vaccinated but a visitor need not? Joe Bloggs (Plumber) can visit his great aunt in a care home on a Sunday without a vaccine - he only has to follow measures which are now being deemed wholly unsatisfactory for care home workers. But on Monday, he needs to be vaccinated to go and fix a leaky tap in the kitchen of the home his great aunt lives in, which I would have thought could be done without being in contact with residents. Someone care to explain what I'm missing?

I also worry this is the first step to mandatory vaccination for all, which I oppose because it is unethical.

@PracticingPerson

I also worry this is the first step to mandatory vaccination for all, which I oppose because it is unethical.

Hancock said in the Commons yesterday that absolutely will NOT be happening. How long do you give it to change? I'm going for 3-6 months but won't be at all surprised if it's earlier.

It’s clear to me no one gives a shit about carers

I don't know about the vaccine effects and safety long term, because the data isn't available, because it hasn't happened yet, and I can only speak to my own personal experience and that of the people I know who have had it about short term side effects.
But the line I've bolded at the top is achingly clear, something I've thought for a long time and actually believed was changing with the recognition of care workers especially during the first lockdown. I've been well and truly disabused of that notion now. I said it in a pp, and it's truly how I feel, that we're societies skivvies, to be told what we're allowed to even think and feel around something like this and if we're any less than dancing with glee at the thought of getting the covid vaccine, we're hateful, selfish individuals who don't care.

Can someone who is defending these measures explain to me why a tradesman visiting a care home must be vaccinated but a visitor need not? Joe Bloggs (Plumber) can visit his great aunt in a care home on a Sunday without a vaccine - he only has to follow measures which are now being deemed wholly unsatisfactory for care home workers. But on Monday, he needs to be vaccinated to go and fix a leaky tap in the kitchen of the home his great aunt lives in, which I would have thought could be done without being in contact with residents. Someone care to explain what I'm missing?

I am not defending the measures, but my gut instinct is that the backlash from families - voters - would be too much and they would be in court faster than their feet could touch the ground, because many families have the means to fight this, and take it to the press. Care workers generally don't have the resources to do so and also have no voice that's listened to about anything, and would be vilified as unprofessional and unethical to do so.
We've systematically been made scapegoats over the years for the failings in care; how many times have you heard the phrases "Lessons have been learned" said gravely and with sincerity, and the public believes it, and then nothing changes and then the next case hits the headlines?
And now this is the latest one to happen, with care workers at the heart of it, and society whipped up into a frenzy about this vaccine, which means the governing bodies and government have effectively side stepped any responsibility for the utter shit show that social care and covid has been.

Little known fact a majority of the English under 65 voted for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour party in the last election. The working class have worked their butts off and put themselves in danger in this pandemic so some middle class working from homes can declaim if you don't like we'll get Filipinos in whilst washing their shopping.

The peasants are revolting!

Let’s try our upmost to be caring and careful in care homes not careless. You will be old one day unless careless. Put the care back into care homes!

Put the care back into care homes
I agree but what does that entail?
To give elderly people in care homes the best quality of life, and to pay the staff a wage which reflects the skills needed and the difficulty of the work?
I'm thinking that would cost about 5 grand a week per resident?

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia

Let’s try our upmost to be caring and careful in care homes not careless. You will be old one day unless careless. Put the care back into care homes!

Yes let's.

Let's start by -

*Ensuring basic needs are met such as running hot water, hoists that work, enough toilet facilities etc and providers who don't are punished instead of being given months to sort out an issue that's very simple, and then being able to get rid of the whistleblower without any real reason.

• Ensuring there's enough staff on duty and available to deal with the residents needs - that are ever changing - so it's not a conveyor belt of staff running from one room to another, having to give too many people as much care as they can in a short amount of time, and the cqc shrugging their shoulders and saying it's within the legal limit so nothing to be done.

• Provide PPE that protects service users and staff, reliably and consistently.

• Invest in training, education and registration across the whole sector to improve the standard of care - And weed out the bad carers, who survive only because they are reliable and willing to cover extra shifts.

*Invest in the planning, consultation, education and delivery of a robust vaccine program that vaccinates to protect service users and staff from communicable illnesses that are prevalent in care homes.

*Stop blaming care workers for the systematic and institutional failures in care and instead give bodies like the cqc teeth, and insist they use them when things go wrong.

Or
We could just keep saying how shit care workers are if they don't run willingly towards the covid jab, deny them the right to have questions and reservations and concerns, or to leave the industry because they don't like a condition of employment that's been introduced, treat them like shit and expect them to give up things that the general population would never even consider giving up, to care for other people's family members, for a wage you can't even live on.

Yep, second option sounds like a winner to me!

@MercyBooth and @bollihigh

Thank you for your support.

@Iquitit

Can I add a few things that need addressing to your brilliant list?

1. mandatory fire alarm maintenance or immediate closure of homes (yep, had to silence one with a pillow because head office hadn’t thought it important to keep paying for maintenance) Plus a fire service that will actually help evacuate the residents if needed. (Ours refused saying their sole job was to extinguish the fire - this was at a training session, so hopefully in reality wouldn’t be true).
2. call alarms that work in every room and alarm panels in every corridor and communal space - so carers can see and hear the alarms.
3. mandatory activity budgets from the care home of a fixed amount per resident per month minimum. No more fund raising and begging for money to get activities to entertain residents.
4. proper, safe staff facilities where they can sit, and eat in peace and a safety in break sessions.
5. effective cqc inspections with the power to actually sanction home owners.
6. stop the practice of expecting a certain number of staff to live within 15 mins of the home and be on 24/7 call for emergencies such as fire evacuation. Without pay.

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia

I must remind my colleagues of their “carelessness”. Let’s take one of my colleagues and describe her working conditions in a typical week.

Let’s say she’s aged 40 and is a black lady who is already disadvantaged in a number of ways in society.

She works a 45 hour week but due to staffing/rota issues one week can run into the next which means she does SIX fifteen hour shifts on the bounce. 7am - 10pm with ONE 15 minute break. She does have another 15 minute break “on paper” but in the real world there is no break.

She gets up at 5am to get the bus as she needs to catch two of them. She probably went to bed around midnight after the last two buses home. So she’s running on 5 hours sleep. She does this over and over again.

Whilst she’s at work she’s on her feet physically hoisting and manual handling.

How can anyone provide a good standard of care under those conditions? It’s absolutely outrageous. I’m lucky in that I only do 21 hours a week. I couldn’t physically function else.

I don’t know some carers do it but it’s no life 😟

If all these proposals for improving care were implemented what would care home fees be like?

A lot more than they are now - or some owners would not be earning £1.5 million per year.

@Bargebill19

A lot more than they are now - or some owners would not be earning £1.5 million per year.

It has always been my assumption that the owners of care homes were the ones raking in all the profit (at the expense of everyone beneath them) but I don't know if this is true in most cases? Is the best solution for care homes to all be part of the NHS and therefore not run for profit?

@egeegogxmv

This is only my opinion. But as in everything there is good and bad. There are some small, family run homes which are excellent and really do look after their staff and residents to the absolute best they can. The owners work hands on and certainly aren’t making millions. Then there are the big chains who really do treat the business as a cash cow, residents are mere numbers. There will be some in the middle, who get some of it right and some of it wrong.

Nhs to run care homes. - it is one way, but finding still needs to be addressed. There are a lot of essential jobs in the nhs, paying minimum wage for long hard hours of work, without whom the system would stop. It’s not perfect, but not fashionable to bash the nhs to the extent care home staff currently are. Worth noting that covid vaccines are to be mandatory for care home staff but only
to be considered for nhs staff unless visiting a care home. Yes, some trusts may require vaccinations- but it is not law across the entire nhs as of yet or even being considered.

Fwiw. I think we need as a society, to reconsider the whole concept of health and our later years. Focussing on improving health has meant we live longer - good? The flip side is that things are more severe when our bodies do start to to fail, we have no cures and we don’t know what to do with people when they can no longer live independently. Care homes in their current forms are the best we have. So perhaps we need to have conversations over wether providing health care just to maintain life is a good thing, perhaps we need to start considering health care that includes quality of life. By this I mean if a patient has dementia, why give them a pneumonia vaccine, a pace maker, a covid jab, cancer treatment? They may actually be better served by allowing nature to take its natural course and allow them to die sooner rather than later.
As a society we have become removed from the idea that we will all die. So maybe a it time to accept that in pursuit of life at all costs, we have lost sight of the need for quality of life, even in our later years. Maybe individuals and families need to be allowed to make what are considered currently unpleasant decisions. Maybe euthanasia is an actual option.

So yes, maybe a move for care homes to be returned to state control along with a substantial hike in fees, tax and local taxes to pay for it. Plus a discussion on the reality of the frailty of life in your later years.
However the points that a previous poster has raised also need to be addressed whatever the outcome.

@Bargebill19, I agree with everything you say, maybe this will all come to pass and one day we will look in the rear view mirror and see covid as a blessing in disguise 👀

Bargebill19

A lot more than they are now - or some owners would not be earning £1.5 million per year.

It has always been my assumption that the owners of care homes were the ones raking in all the profit (at the expense of everyone beneath them) but I don't know if this is true in most cases?
Not in all cases, no. IME the smaller homes who have fewer residents, and maybe not all ensuite rooms, decor that's a bit dated, functional but old equipment like washers and kitchens, where care staff are also expected to do domestic jobs alongside care, to save on laundry and domestic wages; provide better quality care, mainly because they are owner/managers and work on the floor alongside their staff, they have a 'home' feel, rather than a 'care setting'.
They are putting their money into the residents, by training staff, retaining staff by being good employers, buying fresh food that's home cooked, staff happy to volunteer to take residents on trips because they feel valued, families very much involved, because they feel they are and their family members, valued.
But they're dated and don't have all the mod cons like sky TV, or computer based record systems, a fully equipped laundry, great aesthetics etc - because they can't afford it. The owners are IME retired nurses, dr's or social workers who manage from the floor.

Larger, company owned places tend to cut corners on staffing, food, equipment and social activities in favour of big fancy rooms, up to date decor, sky packages, expensive computerised systems for records, hydrotherapy pools, hairdressing salons - because you read the brochure and go 'wow'. They have people on staff who write amazing policies that floor staff don't have a hope in hell of ever meeting because the basics aren't provided to do so.
In a couple of these homes I've worked in, we've been carrying jugs of hot water round the home to the bedrooms to wash people for weeks because the hot water system isn't working and they have prioritised new lounge furniture, because it looks good, over a basic like hot running water.
That is of course based on my experience only, and not a given that every home of each type will be that way.

Is the best solution for care homes to all be part of the NHS and therefore not run for profit?

Ideally yes, but again who will pay for that? The taxpayer? I don't think that it would solve anything tbh, because it will be one of the first areas cut in budget cuts, like mental health is.
The perfect answer is for massive investment in the whole sector, but where that will come from and who is responsible for finding it, I don't know.

The real problem is that people are expecting top quality care at bargain basement prices. No one wants to pay more, but everyone wants more.

Mandatory covid vaccination makes it look like more is being delivered, and with all the furore around it, the problems that I, @Tullyjune @Chillychangchoo and @Bargebill19 have highlighted will yet again be swept aside by the finger being firmly pointed at care workers being the problem. It's a happy coincidence that care workers are being discredited into the bargain, because it makes us less likely to be believed over these issues.