Vaccination to be mandatory for care home staff

[Horseyhorsey3]

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/covid-jabs-to-become-mandatory-for-care-home-staff-in-england

It will be interesting to see how this affects retention and recruitment of staff... Or not...

@Flowerlane

A relative of mine works in a care home that are literally crying out for staff. They have been advertising everywhere for months for staff. This Friday they are holding interviews they have had 5 people phone and cancel already as they are not going to be getting the vaccine so don’t want to start a job that they may have to leave in the next few weeks if it becomes mandatory. My relative is literally on the verge of quitting herself as she is literally on her knees from covering the staff shortage.

It’s a terrible idea and I hope it doesn’t become mandatory.

The real question is, which is there such high rates of hesitancy among this workforce, that so many would ring up and cancel? Are they privy to special information that the rest of us aren’t?

@Abraxan

From our own uk government website.
But you can always read the lancet, or the websites of the cdc or the bmj.

@EgonSpengler2020

With regards to the comparisons with HCPs and hep b vaccine...

How long had this vaccine been in use before it became compulsory for HCPs to have it?

What is the side effect/death risk profile of the hep b vaccine?

Is hep b an equally serious threat to all age categories who catch it?

Once there is enough data to compile a properly evidenced based list of contraindications and indications for all the covid vaccines (none of this "we can't see any reason why it would be a problem for X group"), and if there is no punitive actions against any health worker who has any of those contraindications or cautions listed, then I think it would be reasonable to consider it be a compulsory vaccine, bit until then this is absolutely unacceptable treatment of staff.

@EgonSpengler2020 - hepatitis b isn’t compulsory for care home staff. It’s recommended.

I work in a supported living scheme with service users who have severe learning disabilities and associated mental health conditions. I’m the only support worker who has been vaccinated. I’ve asked my colleagues why they don’t want the vaccine and the reasons are varied, here are a few off the top off my head,

1. it’s against my human rights (times two)

2. I’m worried about my fertility (times four)

3. the vaccine is also killing people (times two)

4. we will all die in ten years after taking it due to population control.

I really get on with my colleagues but their ability to actually read correct information and use critical thinking is practically non existent. It’s a complete lack of education, trust and suspicion in authorities.

Good luck trying to mandate it we cannot get any staff as it is. Most staff leave within days due to the poor conditions we work in (regular 15 hour shifts with one 15 minute break) dangerous hoisting, lack of training, huge blame culture and the list goes on.

I just do not know how my managers will be able to get any staff as most people have said they would rather leave this job and go into retail or basically anything that doesn’t involve wiping arses for minimum wage.

It’s the service users who will also miss out but then they already do in a multitude of ways under this government.

And @Abraxan. You are missing the point about it just not being effective if you only
make it mandatory for the workforce in care homes to be vaccinated. You need to address the issues of non vaccinated nhs workers, social workers, solicitors, volunteers, entertainers, family visitors, friends visiting, residents themselves - all sectors which will have a degree of non vaccination. But that’s ok for them to freely come and go from care homes in the future without any regulation into their vaccination status?

[quote Bargebill19]@Abraxan

From our own uk government website.
But you can always read the lancet, or the websites of the cdc or the bmj.[/quote]
Fair enough. The ones I read said more than that but if the stats are the same now as in April then fine. Happy to be corrected.

However, what I said remains the same.

A 50% reduction is still a big reduction.
It's certainly a lot better than 0% reduction with no vaccine too.

@baldafrique

Hep B vaccine is so you dont catch it if you're bitten by a patient/prisoner! Not the other way round!

I know.

However, it was still mandatory. Which is what I was referring to.
Not the reason why.

@whymewhyme sorry you are in this situation

@whymewhyme

I'm devastated, I work in a care home, I do care about my clients, i don't want to lose my job. I have had various issues relating to my reproductive health and i am trying TTC, I want my body to be as natural as possble to have a better chance of having a healthy pregnancy. This vaccine is a trial on a temporary licence and is being mandated...let that sink in! How scary!

I dont think im being selfish or dont care about my cleints they are like my familly. I'm terrified of having it, im terrified of losing my job.

My basic human right has been taken away from me, i cant even tell you how terrifying that is, I keep having a pang of dread.

I totally get that. My son is in a care home. Every single member of staff is absolutely lovely. In all the time he’s been there there the staff have hardly changed which goes to show what a wonderful place it is to work. (I used to be a registered manager and have seen care staff that really don’t care). I’ll be really upset if any of those staff leave because this ☹️ And to those saying about Hepatitis B, it is not compulsory.

@Bargebill19

And *@Abraxan*. You are missing the point about it just not being effective if you only make it mandatory for the workforce in care homes to be vaccinated. You need to address the issues of non vaccinated nhs workers, social workers, solicitors, volunteers, entertainers, family visitors, friends visiting, residents themselves - all sectors which will have a degree of non vaccination. But that’s ok for them to freely come and go from care homes in the future without any regulation into their vaccination status?

I never said it was okay for anyone who are also going to be within close contact for more than a moment or two should be free to do whatever.

Fwiw dh is a solicitor and does go into care homes to work directly with residents. He has done so in care homes and hospices throughout the pandemic. he was very pleased to get the vaccine so that he was less of a risk to his clients when seeing them.

He always wears a mask and often takes a portable table screen too. He always keeps 2m+ distance. Where possible he sees the client outdoors. If not, then he asks for windows and doors to be open for ventilation, He is double vaccinated, actively went to get an end of day vaccine before his age group was eligible. He also has a paid for flu vaccine to help protect his vulnerable clients.

@abracxan. So get people to vaccinate voluntarily. Let business make it a condition of employment if they want to.
We are talking about freedom to choose and safety of residents. This way of going about it, will not help, it will make things worse.

[quote Bargebill19]@abracxan. So get people to vaccinate voluntarily. Let business make it a condition of employment if they want to.
We are talking about freedom to choose and safety of residents. This way of going about it, will not help, it will make things worse.[/quote]
As I already said, I think a better way to deal with this would be to work with those who are refusing the vaccine and finding out exactly why they are refusing it. Get to the root of the proem wit a ow vaccine uptake in key sectors and try and work through it to regain confidence and trust.

@Abraxan

With all due respect, your Dh isn’t the only
one going into care homes across England. There are many others. As I said there will be a percentage who are not vaccinated.
Your Dh being double vaccinated does not magically protect all residents regardless of others.

[quote Bargebill19]@Abraxan

With all due respect, your Dh isn’t the only
one going into care homes across England. There are many others. As I said there will be a percentage who are not vaccinated.
Your Dh being double vaccinated does not magically protect all residents regardless of others.[/quote]
Well, obviously! As I'm sure you are aware, it was simple an example that many going into these places are trying hard to protect their clients/patients. Dh isn't the only one I know who is doing all they can to protect vulnerable clients and patients.

And yes, I think anyone with close contact ought to be aware of any potential risk they have to the residents of care homes, etc.

If they cannot or will not be vaccinated then maybe close contact with a vulnerable person isn't the right thing for them to do, especially right now whilst we are still in the throes of the pandemic. At the very least, if they really must visit or have close contact, then they should be following other guidance - masks, ventilation, extra hand cleaning, etc.

And with that I'm out. Work to do elsewhere and it's a pointless conversation and will go round in circles constantly.

Fortunately I don't now have any elderly or vulnerable family that need close care during this time so not something I need to get overly invested in any more.

A 50% reduction is still a big reduction.

It says 'One dose of COVID-19 vaccine can cut household transmissions by up to 50%'

Not the same as saying it cuts household transmissions by 50% - it is saying it is not more than 50% but could be less. I don't think the vaccines have been around long enough for definitive data.

But this is beside the point, even if it cut them by 100% I believe it is still wrong that people will lose their jobs if they don't have a medical intervention.

You dont need to announce your departure

@Chillychangchoo

I work in a supported living scheme with service users who have severe learning disabilities and associated mental health conditions. I’m the only support worker who has been vaccinated. I’ve asked my colleagues why they don’t want the vaccine and the reasons are varied, here are a few off the top off my head,

1. it’s against my human rights (times two)

2. I’m worried about my fertility (times four)

3. the vaccine is also killing people (times two)

4. we will all die in ten years after taking it due to population control.

I really get on with my colleagues but their ability to actually read correct information and use critical thinking is practically non existent. It’s a complete lack of education, trust and suspicion in authorities.

Good luck trying to mandate it we cannot get any staff as it is. Most staff leave within days due to the poor conditions we work in (regular 15 hour shifts with one 15 minute break) dangerous hoisting, lack of training, huge blame culture and the list goes on.

I just do not know how my managers will be able to get any staff as most people have said they would rather leave this job and go into retail or basically anything that doesn’t involve wiping arses for minimum wage.

It’s the service users who will also miss out but then they already do in a multitude of ways under this government.

What are your actual proven medical sources for points 2-4?

Sorry I mean their sources?

@Hoppinggreen

Read my thread correctly. These are some of my colleagues “reasons” for declining the vaccine.

@Hoppinggreen

That’s the whole point isn’t it ? They haven’t got the educational resources half the time to even check facts. I know that sounds judgemental but it’s true. They probably got told the facts by Bob and Angie down the road.

As I already said, I think a better way to deal with this would be to work with those who are refusing the vaccine and finding out exactly why they are refusing it. Get to the root of the proem wit a ow vaccine uptake in key sectors and try and work through it to regain confidence and trust.

I agree, the trust has been lost over the way care homes as a whole have been treated in the last year, and IME it was shaky to start with anyway because of the way care workers are treated in general - the way we are ignored, and then blamed for things that go wrong that are systemic and institutional and way above any scope we have to correct.
This unfortunately, is going to add to that. Right now I feel I'm not worthy, in the eyes of the government or society, to even question this vaccine or the potential side effects, to want extra education and training around IC and vaccination and more effective and available PPE - because the overwhelming opinion seems to be that even for me to do that, I don't care enough to do the job.
And I've been vaccinated, I'm not wanting more children, so that side doesn't concern me. I believe in vaccination overall and I believe that care workers (as well as residents) deserve protection from the illnesses that our work exposes us to (not just covid) and I think that on balance, I'm more at risk from covid than a blood clot from the vaccine. I did however struggle through the short term side effects I experienced at work because I couldn't afford to be off, and didn't get paid for attending for the vaccines either.

Losing more staff from the industry will only result in the vaccinated ones being unable to cope and them leaving too.
It's a very worrying time at the moment if you're connected with social care at all.

If all the vulnerable in care homes have been vaccinated and the vaccine works then why do the staff need vaccinating, especially as they are tested numerous times weekly for covid.

[quote Chillychangchoo]@Hoppinggreen

That’s the whole point isn’t it ? They haven’t got the educational resources half the time to even check facts. I know that sounds judgemental but it’s true. They probably got told the facts by Bob and Angie down the road.[/quote]
I do agree, although yes it sounds judgemental, in essence it's true, mainly because vaccination and IC have never been given the time of day in care work, by anyone, least of all the governing bodies or providers, and not seen as priority enough to be available through the NHS.

It's entirely new and being introduced with a vaccine that's under a year old.
And the government answer that with forcing people to have it or leave their jobs.

IF a care worker has a slight reaction to the vaccine and has to take time off will they be paid