Vaccination to be mandatory for care home staff

[Horseyhorsey3]

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/covid-jabs-to-become-mandatory-for-care-home-staff-in-england

It will be interesting to see how this affects retention and recruitment of staff... Or not...

@Mrsorganmorgan

I had Asian flu in 1957, first year in Grammar School

I was one of two girls left standing when Asian flu went through my school in 1957 Never had the flu Never had the jab either

@0None0 it’s not.

www.england.nhs.uk/increasing-health-and-social-care-worker-flu-vaccinations/social-care/

See above link.

It’s amazing how everyone is a care industry expert.

Copied from link -

Funding your staff flu vaccination programme

As with NHS healthcare workers social care staff vaccination should be funded by employers at local level as part of their occupational health responsibilities. There is no central provision of vaccine for NHS or social care services. With many local national pharmacies and supermarkets offering flu vaccinations, the service can be set up easily and delivered at a relatively low cost.

Now I believe some areas may have trials of vaccinating staff from flu and certainly during covid things have changed but I can assure you that historically staff have been required to pay for their own vaccine.

Boacunstrictor

I agree

@Hax

Xenobitch There are people in hospital with Covid who have been double jabbed.The vaccine is not 100% and it is disturbing to see people put all their faith and hope into it, and then blame people who did not have it, for any infection.

Those double jabbed in hospital will be people who are already vulnerable. There are many for whom the vaccine isn't 100% effective but they will not be the young and healthy This is precisely why it's more important for those caring for vulnerable people to have the vaccine.

@hax It should not be enforceable

@Jubilate

There are a series of vaccinations you must have/immunities you must prove before you can be enrolled on a medicine or nursing course. I struggle to see how this is different.

Because before they enrol into those careers they have the choice. Existing carers are being told to get jabbed or get out.

It’s unethical to force consent to a medical procedure with threat of unemployment and poverty.

@BoaCunstrictor

So would you be happy to sack unvaccinated carers if they could be replaced quickly and easily by people who are vaccinated? So you are not concerned with the morality of compulsory vaccination, just the potential impact on delivering the service?

[quote Bloomsbury45]@Tullyjune

Flu vaccine is free for all frontline health and social care workers.[/quote]
In theory.

In practice not so much.

I work in a different GP catchment to where I live. I missed the vaccine because I was in between nights and it wasn't feasible for me to lose about 4 hours sleep to go and get it, a few others missed it too because we were informed the night before (by the surgery) when they were coming.
Boss was told that those of us that missed could get done at the surgery. Only I can't (and a few others) because I'm not registered with them (quite why that's ok when I'm done at work, but not if I need to be done at their surgery, I don't know) so I spoke to my own GP - who bounced me back to the surgery that gave the vaccines - although did offer to do it if I paid, because I'm not eligible under the criteria for a free vaccination, and no, not even if I prove I'm a care worker.
My boss doesn't want to pay for it either.
So I'm still unvaccinated.

And as an aside, where the covid vaccine is concerned, mine isn't even recorded on my GP notes, I was vaccinated through work, and recently called for my vaccination through my GP with my 'group'.
So how they can insist on mandatory vaccination, when there's clearly no standard way of proving you've had it at this stage is going to cause problems too - as the cards are not, as far as I'm aware, deemed proof enough.

Unethical? What rubbish. People need to grow up. Vaccines have been compulsory in many settings I have worked in over many decades. It’s no big deal. Get it or get a different job. That’s all there is to it

[quote Bloomsbury45]@BoaCunstrictor

So would you be happy to sack unvaccinated carers if they could be replaced quickly and easily by people who are vaccinated? So you are not concerned with the morality of compulsory vaccination, just the potential impact on delivering the service?[/quote]
Odd conclusion to draw from posts that never ventured an opinion on that point at all, but anything not to have to engage with my points about how your 'market forces' point potentially leaves vulnerable people without resources behind, I suppose.

It’s unethical to force consent to a medical procedure with threat of unemployment and poverty

Surely it is equally - or arguably more - unethical deliberately to expose vulnerable elderly people to the risk of contracting a potentially fatal disease? We insist on doctors performing invasive procedures being vaccinated against Hepatitis so that they do not infect patients and this is considered acceptable. Why not care workers?

Also I think the suggestion that carers would be condemned to unemployment and poverty is exaggerated. There are other jobs out there.

@Tullyjune but this is a new virus? I imagine new applicants will be asked to have it before enrolment too.

Out of 29 yrs working in hospital and care homes, I have only had the flu jab twice in my whole career.

@0None0

Unethical? What rubbish. People need to grow up. Vaccines have been compulsory in many settings I have worked in over many decades. It’s no big deal. Get it or get a different job. That’s all there is to it

Clearly not all there is to it though. And the people making it so black and white need to stop shouting about growing up and start listening if this isn't going to end very badly.

With a shortage already of care workers and this heavy handed approach of get it or get out threatening to make the situation worse, there's knock on effects that will affect people in real terms.
If we were further into this and we knew for certain that those who refused had definitely been offered, had definitely refused, had been offered support, guidance and education around a situation that they've never faced before, that every effort has been made to make those people aware, then I'd agree it should be a consideration, moving forward.
To land this on people, 6 months into a vaccination program, with a vaccine that's been around less than a year, or they lose their jobs, and the industry loses workers, is so unbelievably short sighted.
People like me will leave, not because I'm forced to get the vaccine (I've had mine) but because of the extra pressure that will be put on us, and not liking the kind of care I'd be forced to give if there literally aren't enough people to do it properly.

@Bloomsbury45

It’s unethical to force consent to a medical procedure with threat of unemployment and poverty

Surely it is equally - or arguably more - unethical deliberately to expose vulnerable elderly people to the risk of contracting a potentially fatal disease? We insist on doctors performing invasive procedures being vaccinated against Hepatitis so that they do not infect patients and this is considered acceptable. Why not care workers?

Also I think the suggestion that carers would be condemned to unemployment and poverty is exaggerated. There are other jobs out there.

You’re only deliberately exposing someone if you know you have Covid or symptoms there of. Talk about exaggerating!! You’re making it sound like illness is a moral failing.

By that reasoning anyone unvaccinated is deliberately walking around infecting people right now. What about when I had to work pre-vaccination and pre-testing? Were carers then “deliberately” infecting vulnerable people? Should we have stayed home and left them to fend for themselves, it would have been the only way not to “deliberately” infect them.

Like I’ve said before, I chose to be vaccinated. But I don’t agree with the demonising of people who chose not to. They are not deliberately trying to harm people, they are making a decision about their own bodies. One that shouldn’t effect other people if proper infection control and PPE is used and the service user is also vaccinated. The risk is very low, too low to legitimise forced vaccinations. If those people are so very vulnerable that the vaccine doesn’t protect them and they are likely to die then we need to be protecting them from ALL illness, not just Covid.

The problem is that people will become lax, they have Covid tunnel vision. They will think that as long as they have the covid vaccine they can relax. Not true, and more deaths will happen because of this.

[quote Jubilate]@Tullyjune but this is a new virus? I imagine new applicants will be asked to have it before enrolment too. [/quote]
And that’s fine. I object to making existing employees chose between jab or job. Because then it’s not really a choice is it?

@Bloomsbury45

It’s unethical to force consent to a medical procedure with threat of unemployment and poverty

Surely it is equally - or arguably more - unethical deliberately to expose vulnerable elderly people to the risk of contracting a potentially fatal disease? We insist on doctors performing invasive procedures being vaccinated against Hepatitis so that they do not infect patients and this is considered acceptable. Why not care workers?

Also I think the suggestion that carers would be condemned to unemployment and poverty is exaggerated. There are other jobs out there.

But why does that only apply to covid? If that's the case why isn't there already a robust vaccination program in place for care workers for other things?

Could it be that until covid, no one gave a shit and still don't unless it's covid and they've got a bandwagon to jump on? 🤔

Appalling and cowardly. I hope they all fucking quit.

And live on what?

@BoaCunstrictor

To be fair, my response was a question - not a conclusion. I would be interested in the answer.

The “ market forces” point is just a statement of fact. Homes which do not insist on vaccination will go under. This is already happening in some areas. It is the first question that those moving family members into care homes ask. And I think this is why the government want to make it compulsory. Because otherwise, you are going to end up with a situation in which self funders get vaccinated staff and those funded by the local authority do not. So poor vulnerable people are going to be more exposed than wealthier vulnerable people. And most people will find that unacceptable.

There is obviously a balance of rights question here. But in my view the rights of the residents, who have no choice in this matter, trump those of the carers - who do.

And I think it will be interesting to see the impact in areas where carers are recruited from communities which are more vaccine hesitant for religious/cultural reasons. Some may leave. But I think there is a strong argument that making the job dependent on the vaccination will tilt the balance and make it easier for them to take the vaccine.

But why does that only apply to covid? If that's the case why isn't there already a robust vaccination program in place for care workers for other things?

Well I think Covid is the first disease in recent history to have ripped through care homes and killed a large proportion of the residents. Describing it as “a bandwagon” implies it is made up. But we have all seen the coffins.

And care workers in the homes I am familiar with are strongly encouraged to take the flu vaccine every year, as are visitors. And you are asked not to visit if you are ill.

@Bloomsbury45 unfortunately on many years flu has ripped through care homes killing many many residents. A few years ago a care home I know of had 6 residents die in 3 days of type A influenza. It’s just no one cared then. It wasn’t a news story.

“Sexy” world wide pandemic news has just shone a light on how vulnerable care homes are.

@Bloomsbury45

But why does that only apply to covid? If that's the case why isn't there already a robust vaccination program in place for care workers for other things?

Well I think Covid is the first disease in recent history to have ripped through care homes and killed a large proportion of the residents. Describing it as “a bandwagon” implies it is made up. But we have all seen the coffins.

And care workers in the homes I am familiar with are strongly encouraged to take the flu vaccine every year, as are visitors. And you are asked not to visit if you are ill.

No by bandwagon I mean that people are just joining in with the baying about selfish care workers without stopping to think, or listen and discuss the real concerns raised by this and the effects it can have in the future, and if there's a better way to deal with this other than get the jab or get out.

And you said it yourself 'strongly encouraged' not mandatory.
This has only happened in the last few years too and is not a widespread campaign or national initiative, it's dependant on employer and NHS trust as to how proactive they are at getting access for staff to the flu jab, and it's not a standard question that's asked when applying for care jobs.
Comparing a surgeon having a hepatitis jab to a care worker having a flu jab is like comparing apples and oranges.

Not having a vaccine when there is none available is not vaguely comparable to refusing one.

Again though Bloomsbury, you're failing to consider the rights of those needing care to actually have it. You are simply assuming that insisting on the covid vaccine would improve things for them, and clearly aren't considering the impact if the supply of carers available for work drops. This doesn't stop being a problem simply because some people feel morally justified in their stance. There is a reason nobody has yet given us any idea where this supply of vaccinated, suitable and willing carers is going to come from.

[quote Tullyjune]@Bloomsbury45 unfortunately on many years flu has ripped through care homes killing many many residents. A few years ago a care home I know of had 6 residents die in 3 days of type A influenza. It’s just no one cared then. It wasn’t a news story.

“Sexy” world wide pandemic news has just shone a light on how vulnerable care homes are.[/quote]
Exactly.
I've seen half the beds empty after flu has done the round, and fully expect to see it again.
I've seen noro go through somewhere too - and had to care for people without gloves or aprons.

The only time I've known PPE not be restricted is in these later months, even when I first went back to care (during the pandemic) we were expected to use the same mask for the entire shift, until we pushed back and refused as a whole team.

But no one wants to listen to these things, that have, and will have, a huge impact on protection of the vulnerable around covid or anything else in favour of the easy option to blame unvaccinated care workers.

Just one more step along the road to a properly cowed and compliant population.

Make most people afraid enough and they'll accept anything and then bully the non-conformists into towing the line 'for the good of society', whilst never actually thinking if this is a society that we should be wanting to live in.