Vaccination to be mandatory for care home staff

[Horseyhorsey3]

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/covid-jabs-to-become-mandatory-for-care-home-staff-in-england

It will be interesting to see how this affects retention and recruitment of staff... Or not...

@Iquitit I'm pretty sure that's the case for those working in the NHS.

@Iquitit www.cqc.org.uk/guidance-providers/gps/gp-mythbuster-37-immunisation-healthcare-staff

Admittedly no mums on this forum are in care homes (yet) but what about the viewpoint of those in residential care homes? Without them there is no need for this sector.

Therefore if you were in a care home or choosing a care home - what do you prefer???

So what happened to viewpoints from those most likely impacted? Do they not matter (again!)?

I had Asian flu in 1957, first year in Grammar School

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia

Admittedly no mums on this forum are in care homes (yet) but what about the viewpoint of those in residential care homes? Without them there is no need for this sector.

Therefore if you were in a care home or choosing a care home - what do you prefer???

So what happened to viewpoints from those most likely impacted? Do they not matter (again!)?

Actually I can shed some light on this. I work in a care home for younger adults with physical disabilities.

I talk to them frequently about these type of issues and questions and unsurprisingly they are well rounded intelligent people who believe and care about the free will of others. They would hate to think that someone had been forced into vaccination against their will in order to keep their job. They are able to take responsibility for their own health by vaccinating themselves.

I think they would rather have unvaccinated Mary who has worked with them for 15 years and has excellent skills and is fully infection control compliant, than Lisa who has no interest in care work but is filling a vacancy so she doesn’t get sanctioned, has no experience in infection control and poor care skills.

[quote magicflange]@Iquitit I'm pretty sure that's the case for those working in the NHS.[/quote]
Interesting reading.
I've never been asked about vaccination for anything in care, and I deal with bodily fluids and blood, and have been at risk from being bitten, scratched etc (and have been) as I've repeatedly said, it's never even been mentioned.
It would seem that the care industry is expected to be, but is not, in line with this, and no one is bothering about implementation, checking or anything within private care companies.
As a carer on the floor, so to speak, I wasn't even aware it was part of the cqc scope.
It's never been included in any of the training (including the current one I'm doing) I've done.
Hardly a failure on the care staff's part.

I am paying £70000 a year for DF in a care home.

I expect the staff caring for him to be vaccinated. If they are not they increase the risk of him contracting a potentially fatal disease. If they do not want to be vaccinated they should get a job in another sector.

@BritishGas66

I am paying £70000 a year for DF in a care home.

I expect the staff caring for him to be vaccinated. If they are not they increase the risk of him contracting a potentially fatal disease. If they do not want to be vaccinated they should get a job in another sector.

How would you feel if they did and then the home struggled to recruit suitable and vaccinated replacements?

I think they would rather have unvaccinated Mary who has worked with them for 15 years and has excellent skills and is fully infection control compliant, than Lisa who has no interest in care work but is filling a vacancy so she doesn’t get sanctioned, has no experience in infection control and poor care skills

This is another concern I have, that according to some of the thinking on this thread, someone who is vaccinated has the right mind set to work in care, and will be seen as such and employed over people who are better at the job overall, or in fact, in demand.
Being willing to have a covid jab a good carer does not make.

@Iquitit quite.

It will be interesting in the future to see the statistics in the rise in other illnesses in care home last due to under or inappropriate staffing.

If full infection control procedures and good PPE practice is in use there is little risk of covid. We had a staff member test positive for covid (asymptomatic, picked up in routine PCR testing last November before vaccines). He worked 30 hours while covid positive, but our home and he had excellent covid secure procedures. He wore correct PPE and practiced effective hand washing. Not one resident or staff member caught covid from him (tested daily for 14 days after his test).
It wouldn’t have mattered what he was I’ll with, his experience and practice preventing him from being a danger.

Now had he been an inexperienced untrained worker who was vaccinated against covid but had flu or scarlet fever or one of the other many infectious diseases that can easily kill vulnerable people. What then?

@Iquitit

I think they would rather have unvaccinated Mary who has worked with them for 15 years and has excellent skills and is fully infection control compliant, than Lisa who has no interest in care work but is filling a vacancy so she doesn’t get sanctioned, has no experience in infection control and poor care skills

This is another concern I have, that according to some of the thinking on this thread, someone who is vaccinated has the right mind set to work in care, and will be seen as such and employed over people who are better at the job overall, or in fact, in demand.
Being willing to have a covid jab a good carer does not make.

Yeah that worries me too. There seems to be a lot of assumption that requiring vaccination would be better for the welfare of those in residential and care homes, without giving any thought to issues like this.

@ Tullyjune

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia
Admittedly no mums on this forum are in care homes (yet) but what about the viewpoint of those in residential care homes? Without them there is no need for this sector.

Therefore if you were in a care home or choosing a care home - what do you prefer???

So what happened to viewpoints from those most likely impacted? Do they not matter (again!)?
————
Actually I can shed some light on this. I work in a care home for younger adults with physical disabilities.

I talk to them frequently about these type of issues and questions and unsurprisingly they are well rounded intelligent people who believe and care about the free will of others. They would hate to think that someone had been forced into vaccination against their will in order to keep their job. They are able to take responsibility for their own health by vaccinating themselves.

I think they would rather have unvaccinated Mary who has worked with them for 15 years and has excellent skills and is fully infection control compliant, than Lisa who has no interest in care work but is filling a vacancy so she doesn’t get sanctioned, has no experience in infection control and poor care skills.
———————

Thanks Tullyjune. That is a good reply but however in your hypothetical scenario what if
there is a pool of highly experienced, skilled care workers who appreciate the slight added protection that vaccination provides to themselves, their families and importantly their vulnerable care home clientele who are vaccinated themselves but as we know it reduces but does not eliminate the risk? There must surely be more than the two less optimal choices you advocate? Care homes are not themselves compulsory (I believe). Not for the care of the most vulnerable elderly with many fitter preferring to live in their homes but with some outside help as needed. Let’s agree to disagree if necessary as I respect your views but it’s not the answer I will be looking for in old age with the proviso that more agreeable options are available.

Why would anyone working in a care home not be vaccinated against flu annually? That would be criminally negligent

How would you feel if they did and then the home struggled to recruit suitable and vaccinated replacements?

Presumably nowhere near as bad as they would feel if he caught Covid from an unvaccinated staff member and died.

I think there will be a huge element of market forces in this. Self funders will insist on vaccinated staff. Care homes cannot survive without self funders. And care homes who let their residents die from preventable diseases because they are deliberately exposing them to potentially fatal diseases do not deserve to survive.

@0None0

Why would anyone working in a care home not be vaccinated against flu annually? That would be criminally negligent

It’s not required, it’s not free, not everyone can have the flu vaccine. I personally have it because I get it free as I have an underlying condition. But some care workers are living hand to mouth and £15 for a flu vaccine is out of their reach. You don’t even get it free if you are on benefits.

@Tullyjune

Flu vaccine is free for all frontline health and social care workers.

@Glasstabletop

Appalling and cowardly. I hope they all fucking quit.

Dear GOD ALMIGHTY what is wrong with people?

@Bloomsbury45

How would you feel if they did and then the home struggled to recruit suitable and vaccinated replacements?

Presumably nowhere near as bad as they would feel if he caught Covid from an unvaccinated staff member and died.

I think there will be a huge element of market forces in this. Self funders will insist on vaccinated staff. Care homes cannot survive without self funders. And care homes who let their residents die from preventable diseases because they are deliberately exposing them to potentially fatal diseases do not deserve to survive.

This won’t happen because no care home will have unvaccinated staff.

That’s the point, all care home staff have to be vaccinated. So it’s a moot point.

You will either have excellent carers who chose the vaccine or indifferent carers who happen to be vaccinated or negligent carers who shouldn’t be in care but got the job because they have the vaccine and there was high demand for workers.

[quote Bloomsbury45]@Tullyjune

Flu vaccine is free for all frontline health and social care workers.[/quote]
Not it’s not

www.england.nhs.uk/increasing-health-and-social-care-worker-flu-vaccinations/social-care/

They recommend the organisation funds it, but they rarely do.

“ As with NHS healthcare workers social care staff vaccination should be funded by employers at local level as part of their occupational health responsibilities. There is no central provision of vaccine for NHS or social care services. With many local national pharmacies and supermarkets offering flu vaccinations, the service can be set up easily and delivered at a relatively low cost.”

@Bloomsbury45

How would you feel if they did and then the home struggled to recruit suitable and vaccinated replacements?

Presumably nowhere near as bad as they would feel if he caught Covid from an unvaccinated staff member and died.

I think there will be a huge element of market forces in this. Self funders will insist on vaccinated staff. Care homes cannot survive without self funders. And care homes who let their residents die from preventable diseases because they are deliberately exposing them to potentially fatal diseases do not deserve to survive.

What if they died following poor care due to low staffing when recruitment was insufficient, or deterioration following a move when the facility they were settled in closed due to lack of staff? This is what I mean when I say advocates are failing to consider what happens if their proposals lead to staff shortages. It's all very well talking about who 'deserves' to survive as a business, be employed as a carer etc, but meanwhile people need care and if a home shuts because they aren't able to or won't pay a premium, those residents are going to have to go somewhere. It would behove us to give a fuck where: they don't become less important because oh well, market forces.

I can see both sides of the argument. I think care workers should be paid far more than tnhey are.

[quote Bloomsbury45]@Tullyjune

Flu vaccine is free for all frontline health and social care workers.[/quote]
This

@Mrsorganmorgan yes agree they are underpaid.

@Mrsorganmorgan

I can see both sides of the argument. I think care workers should be paid far more than tnhey are.

Which would hopefully alleviate the issue. I would strongly consider voting for any party who could provide realistic proposals about how we fund care going forward, as I don't think the current system is sustainable. Meanwhile, there already aren't enough care staff, Brexit hasn't helped, and now we're talking about something that's inevitably going to drive some out and deter others. It's a real crisis in the making.

There are a series of vaccinations you must have/immunities you must prove before you can be enrolled on a medicine or nursing course. I struggle to see how this is different.