Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “will be considered” amid rise in blood clots Thread 3

[Whichjab]

New thread as the MRHA report is out today.

Note this is not an anti vaccination thread.

My current plan of attack is to take an antibody test and pray I have antibodies (from infection not vaccine). If I do, I will definitely not take a second dose. If not... I'll still wait and see what the data says.

Michael Makris, Professor of Haemostasis and Thrombosis at The University of Sheffield, UK.

https://twitter.com/ProfMakris

Dear
@MHRAgovuk, another week has gone by and I am still asking for the same information: 1. What are the numbers of persons vaccinated with 1st AZ vaccine by decade of age? 2. How many reports of VITT cases have you had after Pfizer vaccine? 3. Details of 2nd dose VITT cases.

When prof Makris was asked if a freedom of information request could be submitted he replied:

Several requests have been made. The response is that they will publish the data in due course. The trouble is that the data is required now when people all over the world are making decisions, not later on to analyse what happened.

@AppleJane thanks for that. The data must be available. I think FOI requests have 20 working day time limit hopefully the clock is running out.

Canada are now using pfizer/moderna exclusively for second doses when AZ first dose.

abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/canada-pfizer-moderna-preferred-2nd-dose-astrazeneca-78346055

I had a persistent headache yesterday and felt generally under the weather which I presume was a mixture of hayfever, the weather and not sleeping well (because of the damn hayfever). I had Pfizer last week. If I'd had AZ I would have been worrying about VITT, but at the same time wouldn't have been wanting to seek medical help in case itbwas nothing and I was over reacting. They're really putting people (women mostly, it seems) in a terrible position by continuing to push AZ on them.

I know im a PITA but does anyone have links to info on the “peak dangerzone” post AZ? I can’t find any info and i swear I read day 10-14 somewhere? (I’m day 7 post 2nd AZ). When friends ask me which jab I got I say “oh the killer clot one” then laugh. Its not funny at all though

Jabbinell i read 10-12 on here but I am not sure where that information came from.
I am day 16, so another two weeks of worry plus the added anxiety of the very rare events up to 42 days. It is stressful I agree.

@Jabbinell peak time is 10 to 12 days. It’s somewhere on Prof Markis’ twitter feed. If I find it I’ll let you know.

[quote Actualfactual]@AppleJane thanks for that. The data must be available. I think FOI requests have 20 working day time limit hopefully the clock is running out.

Canada are now using pfizer/moderna exclusively for second doses when AZ first dose.

abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/canada-pfizer-moderna-preferred-2nd-dose-astrazeneca-78346055[/quote]
There is a large list of European countries that have either taken the same approach or are offering a choice of Pfizer or AZ as second dose. These include Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Italy, France, Germany and Spain most of which took much earlier action than the U.K. re clotting concerns. This gives me a little more confidence re looking at mixing. I had to massively fight my corner this morning but I’m on the list for a phone call from my GP early next week to discuss mixing. Though the receptionist advised that she can’t guarantee they will agree to call me to discuss it.

I personally wouldn't be able to cope with the 42 days of panic after another AZ - fair play to those who can though

receptionist advised that she can’t guarantee they will agree to call me to discuss it.

So now we're forced to lie just to get a doctors appointment? Look how much this pandemic has cost us. When did we need to even tell the receptionist why we needed an appointment. Ridiculous.

Thanks @Rainbowsandstorms ill go take a look

@SirVixofVixHall I’m sure I also read that the latter part of the danger zone (post 28 days) is for regular clots, still bad of course, but not really deadly like the VITT ones. So hopefully you can relax a bit more as these clots are easier to spot yourself and treat.

Not really sure why Prof Markis and others are still pushing for age breakdown. A quick and dirty analysis is possible.

Almost all 40-75 had AZ (frontline workers prioritised for Pfizer excepted) Population estimates are roughly 40-50 5.5m, 50-60 6m and 60-75 6.5m. The VITT case levels are roughly the same for each of 40-50 and 50-60 at just under 100. So the rate for 40-60 looks prima facie to be closer to 1 in 50,000 than 1 in 100,000 but not markedly different between these 2 decades. Rate does look lower above age 60.

What am I missing?

I really shouldn't have read this thread when my vaccine is this afternoon.

I honestly don't know what to do now.

@SempreSuiGeneris are those figures based on the assumption that all 5.5m in the 40-50 age bracket have received AZ? And let's say for arguments sake that only half of them did what does that do to your figures? I guess Prof Makris just wants to look at the real data rather than guesstimates.

@SempreSuiGeneris it’s so hard to actually know though. Most of my friends who are in their early 40s received Pfizer. We know the rate under 50 is at least 1 in 50,000 and in Norway they saw a rate of 1 in 20,000 I’d really like to see it broken down by decade of age. If there is nothing to hide why not publish it.

@Morgan12 oh no not a good thread to have clicked on. Did you have any concerns prior to reading this? Are you naturally risk adverse? If it helps the risk is around 0.00002 percent if working on a case rate of around 1 in 50,000 for first dose or around 0.00004 percent working on a case rate of 1 in 20,000 which is the highest known observed rate. I’m assuming it’s your second dose you’re due to be getting in which case the rate looks to be smaller. If you’re in England and over 40 and it’s a first dose then there are ways to get an alternative to AZ and if you’re under 40 they won’t give you AZ. I hope that helps a bit. I’ve had my first dose and I’m in my 30s and personally feel uncomfortable with the second dose but I’m very risk adverse and struggle with health anxiety so the idea of another wait to check I’m ok doesn’t feel very manageable. It’s such a personal decision and only one you can make.

@SempreSuiGeneris

Not really sure why Prof Markis and others are still pushing for age breakdown. A quick and dirty analysis is possible.

Almost all 40-75 had AZ (frontline workers prioritised for Pfizer excepted) Population estimates are roughly 40-50 5.5m, 50-60 6m and 60-75 6.5m. The VITT case levels are roughly the same for each of 40-50 and 50-60 at just under 100. So the rate for 40-60 looks prima facie to be closer to 1 in 50,000 than 1 in 100,000 but not markedly different between these 2 decades. Rate does look lower above age 60.

What am I missing?

Re rough and ready - quite a few 50+ men I know had Pfizer. This was a few months ago before the announcement which led to it being kept aside for under 40s. I'd say about 30% of my 40+ acquaintances got Pfizer.

Can anyone provide me with the link to the really comprehensive document re Astra Zeneca that includes situations where an alternative second dose could be considered if the patient wasn’t going to complete the course. I’ve looked through the thread and tried googling too but can’t find it. Thanks

Sorry read % for actuals per Statistica (shouldn't post on my way out the door).

Cohorts are 40-49 8.6m, 50-59 9.1m and 60-75 11.4m. Makes more sense in line with total number of 1st dose AZ given of 24.6m and concentrated in these age groups. Doesn't change the underlying point or calculation much though.

I really hope the scientists will come up with more answers regarding this soon. I know there’s ongoing research to find out who’s at risk of blood clots and how to prevent it.

Does anyone who is following the Mrha reports closely have a screen shot or remember the number of deaths recorded after a second dose on last week’s report (10th June) I know it’s now four. I notice one of the new deaths is in the 30 to 39 age bracket which makes me wonder if this is a second dose death rather due to them not having been giving first doses of AZ in this age group for a while. I’ve also noticed that Prof Markis hasn’t commented on how few convincing cases he’s seen after second doses as he has in previous weeks, or am I reading too much into it? I’m due to speak to my GP about mixing but having heard how difficult another poster found getting mixing actioned after a clotting incident after her first dose I’m thinking my chances of this are slim.

@whataballbag how did you get on this week? Did you manage to get your second Pfizer dose?

[quote Rainbowsandstorms]@whataballbag how did you get on this week? Did you manage to get your second Pfizer dose?[/quote]
I did indeed

@Rainbowsandstorms I don't recall them specifying second dose deaths on last week's report but I'll have a look when I'm next near my computer