School pupils vaccinated from September

[Totalbeach]

This is in lots of papers today. Such as:

www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19274021.secondary-school-pupils-set-get-covid-jab-september/

And:

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/02/nhs-england-draws-up-plan-to-give-covid-jabs-to-children-12-and-over

What’s your reaction?

Mine is that I 100% won’t be allowing my children to be vaccinated.

In the whole pandemic so far, 12 children under 15 have died in the U.K. That increases to 32 in the under 20s. The mortality rate is vanishingly tiny. A huge percentage of kids don’t even get symptoms at all.

The government has assured us till they are blue in the face that schools are safe and that children don’t spread it so it will be interesting to see what kind of enormous gaslighting they attempt to pull off to persuade parents they now need to vaccinate their kids.

The long term effects of the vaccines are totally unknown and recent events with AZ have proved rather horribly that even after a vaccine is rolled out, serious effects can come to light. Including events that disproportionately affect certain age groups.

I’m fully vaccinated (including first Covid vaccine) as are my kids but there is no way I’d let them be vaccinated in September. With any of the vaccines.

I don’t have misconceptions - I happen to think it’s not rigorous enough as has been proven in the UK. If you are happy for your kids to have it then I am delighted for you

But when you look at the top 10 causes of death, on an annual basis, this year, we've had, depending on whose numbers you use, somewhere between 300 and 600 pediatric deaths from COVID-19 so far. That's probably an undercount. And that would fit it somewhere in the top 10, somewhere between like number 6 and number 9 in terms of causes of death for children

In 2020, around 100 children died of COVID-19 in the under-15 category. That’s not a lot. And despite you desperately trying to shoehorn it into a ‘top ten’ designation, it’s actually this:

In the U.S., just over 100 children under age 15 died from COVID-19 in 2020. They account for 0.03% of the 376,000 COVID-19 deaths since the virus hit the country last spring and less than 0.5% of the 26,000 total child deaths from all causes

.5% of the 26,000 total child deaths ... Why were you trying to scare us?

time.com/5929751/childhood-mortality-2020-covid-19/

In B4 muh long-Covid variants or some such 🙄

@TattyDevine, I think that's a perfectly reasonable approach to the situation, especially since you probably won't have access to the vaccine for your children for quite a while.

Then why not just limit the vaccine to children who are susceptible to COVID (eg have preexisting conditions or are on immunosuppressants) or live with caregivers that cannot be vaccinated?

In practice, this is what may well happen as parents make the decision with their pediatricians and GP's. But it should be decided on a case by case basis, by the doctors and patients, without a regulatory limit to certain types of patients.

In the U.S., just over 100 children under age 15 died from COVID-19 in 2020. They account for 0.03% of the 376,000 COVID-19 deaths since the virus hit the country last spring and less than 0.5% of the 26,000 total child deaths from all causes

The US was on lockdown for large parts of 2020. Schools were closed. Covid was spreading mostly among the adult population.

Covid is much more of an issue in 2021, since we came out of lockdown and since schools have reopened.

zz your paediatricians may say that but UK scientists and our health minister say there's no benefit to children in being vaccinated other than helping society. Every vaccine has risks and most are tiny I agree. We have some of the best scientists in the world and are responsible for most genome sequencing for Europe

But any risk, given the child covid illness and deaths, has to be greater with vaccine.

literally hardly any kids have died and that inc CEV so chances are almost 99.999% that kids won't die. Why take even a miniscule risk with a vaccine for that - its crazy.

The US didn't do great with lockdowns hence they have worse death rate than ours

The US death rate is around the same per 100k as the UK, despite having had fewer lockdowns and less economic impact from Covid.

.5% of the 26,000 total child deaths ... Why were you trying to scare us?

Here's a link to the article ZZTop was quoting. You can judge the veracity yourself.

www.mprnews.org/story/2021/05/03/npr-children-now-account-for-22-of-new-u-s-covid-cases-why-is-that

The CDC is currently reporting 287 cases of covid mortality in ages 0-17 in the US (see screenshot). That's almost certainly an undercount. Here's a link to the CDC data page.

www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#AgeAndSex

So 0.6% of deaths were from covid? Hardly a concern then

Compared to 4% from flu which no one bats an eye from

0.4%

Except that it's very unlikely that the vaccine will kill hundreds of children.

[quote MissConductUS].5% of the 26,000 total child deaths ... Why were you trying to scare us?

Here's a link to the article ZZTop was quoting. You can judge the veracity yourself.

www.mprnews.org/story/2021/05/03/npr-children-now-account-for-22-of-new-u-s-covid-cases-why-is-that

The CDC is currently reporting 287 cases of covid mortality in ages 0-17 in the US (see screenshot). That's almost certainly an undercount. Here's a link to the CDC data page.

www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#AgeAndSex[/quote]
Where’s the proof that’s an undercount?

At 300+ deaths in children under 18 in the USA ... that’s less than seasonal flu iirc averages 400 annually.

It’s not a big problem and even that interview linked the dr states pointedly that kids aren’t the ones driving infections

@MissConductUS

Except that it's very unlikely that the vaccine will kill hundreds of children.

Deaths of children without preexisting conditions would be nice to know ... vanishingly few likely and the vulnerable kids could be vaccinated under emergency authorisation. That strategy would hardly provoke controversy, would save lives and most people would support it.

What’s not to like about that?

If 0.6% of child deaths are covid then it won’t take many deaths to make it ‘not worth vaccinating’

No one worries about pneumonia and flu

Kids in uk (except certain ages) aren’t vaccinated for flu - mine never have been offered and are teens and even if offered why would I?

Where’s the proof that’s an undercount?

Since they only tally a death when the reporting process works perfectly, it would almost have to be. It's a widely acknowledged problem.

US COVID Deaths May Be Undercounted by 36 Percent

At 300+ deaths in children under 18 in the USA ... that’s less than seasonal flu iirc averages 400 annually

It's certainly a smaller problem than it is for the older cohorts, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to reduce it. And kids can suffer considerably even if their case doesn't require hospitalization. Avoiding the infection reduces human suffering.

and the vulnerable kids could be vaccinated under emergency authorisation. That strategy would hardly provoke controversy, would save lives and most people would support it.

What’s not to like about that?

As I said up-thread, that's probably what will happen in fact. Children will need parental permission to get it, so offering it to all children will allow parents to make their own risk/reward decision about it, with the advice of their healthcare providers.

Again, the US death figures for children are based on many schools still not having reopened, and most remaining in hybrid mode.

School sports only restarted recently, and masks are still being worn indoors.

Although universities have mostly now welcomed students back to campus, most of them still do not have much in the way of in-person teaching, and are requiring social distancing, mask wearing, and capacity limits.

In the general community mask wearing is still required in many places and situations.

Things like concerts, sports events, large crowds have not yet restarted in most of the country.

All of these things have helped to keep Covid rates down among young people.

The goal is to be able to remove these limits soon, so that life can return to normal. As this happens, young people will be more exposed to Covid.

We still don't know what the death/hospitalisation rates will be for Covid among young people when life is back to normal, but they are unlikely to be as low as the numbers you've seen so far.

@Watapalava

If 0.6% of child deaths are covid then it won’t take many deaths to make it ‘not worth vaccinating’

No one worries about pneumonia and flu

Kids in uk (except certain ages) aren’t vaccinated for flu - mine never have been offered and are teens and even if offered why would I?

We do vaccinate against flu in the US, which is partly why we don't worry about it. The flu vaccine is recommended for all children over 6 months.

We also vaccinate against pneumococcal disease. And we vaccinate against chickenpox.

It's almost as if we don't want children dying from preventable diseases.

In uk we don’t vaccinate against flu or chicken pox for all (some school year groups have been offered tho no idea why)

Whilst I assume some get ill I’ve never heard of a child personally who’s even been ill with flu never mind died

Both my dds had chicken pox and were fine

Chickenpox parties are still pretty common in my area

Ah we're back to anecdata.

My DD's entire school closed for 2 weeks due to flu. DS kindly gave his chickenpox to a friend's toddler, who developed ITP and was at risk for a stroke as a result. One of my best friends at university died at 18 from flu.

I presume in USA people pay for it one way or another hence why it’s offered routinely

Cost benefit for someone?

Here is not offered due to the benefit having had chicken pox gives you from shingles

I presume in USA people pay for it one way or another hence why it’s offered routinely

Cost benefit for someone?

The Federal government has paid for childhood vaccinations since 1993.

Pediatric Vaccination: Who Bears The Burden?

There is a cost-benefit to vaccinating people. It's more cost-efficient to vaccinate people against diseases than to treat them for the disease.

The government mandates that vaccinations are covered at no cost to the consumer by the insurance companies. Because in the long run, it makes more sense for people to be vaccinated against disease than for them to suffer the disease.

For those without insurance there are multiple programs vaccinating people at no cost.

In 14 years in the US, with 3 children, I have never paid for a vaccine. Ironically we did have to pay for some vaccines in the UK because the NHS did not provide them.

BTW getting chickenpox does not give you protection from the shingles. In fact, you can't get the shingles unless you've had the chickenpox - the virus lies dormant in your system.

The chickenpox vaccine is not offered in the UK for a variety of other reasons, partly cost, and partly vaccine hesitancy on the part of parents.

The 16-year-old daughter of some family friends had Covid really badly and has been left with some effects she hasn’t shaken off. It’s been four months so I’m not sure it qualifies as long Covid yet, but she has extreme fatigue and hasn’t been able to return to school where she should be doing the first year of A levels.

I would have vaccinated my DC anyway, to help stop transmission, but this poor girl’s experience has made me want the vaccines for my teenagers as soon as possible.

@ZZTopGuitarSolo

There is a cost-benefit to vaccinating people. It's more cost-efficient to vaccinate people against diseases than to treat them for the disease.

The government mandates that vaccinations are covered at no cost to the consumer by the insurance companies. Because in the long run, it makes more sense for people to be vaccinated against disease than for them to suffer the disease.

For those without insurance there are multiple programs vaccinating people at no cost.

In 14 years in the US, with 3 children, I have never paid for a vaccine. Ironically we did have to pay for some vaccines in the UK because the NHS did not provide them.

BTW getting chickenpox does not give you protection from the shingles. In fact, you can't get the shingles unless you've had the chickenpox - the virus lies dormant in your system.

The chickenpox vaccine is not offered in the UK for a variety of other reasons, partly cost, and partly vaccine hesitancy on the part of parents.

It’s not given here because of cost. That’s it. It’s considered a mild virus and doesn’t affect enough children seriously to warrant a vaccine given. I wonder what is more risky in terms of deaths / hospitalisations - covid or chicken pox (for children)