School pupils vaccinated from September

[Totalbeach]

This is in lots of papers today. Such as:

www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19274021.secondary-school-pupils-set-get-covid-jab-september/

And:

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/02/nhs-england-draws-up-plan-to-give-covid-jabs-to-children-12-and-over

What’s your reaction?

Mine is that I 100% won’t be allowing my children to be vaccinated.

In the whole pandemic so far, 12 children under 15 have died in the U.K. That increases to 32 in the under 20s. The mortality rate is vanishingly tiny. A huge percentage of kids don’t even get symptoms at all.

The government has assured us till they are blue in the face that schools are safe and that children don’t spread it so it will be interesting to see what kind of enormous gaslighting they attempt to pull off to persuade parents they now need to vaccinate their kids.

The long term effects of the vaccines are totally unknown and recent events with AZ have proved rather horribly that even after a vaccine is rolled out, serious effects can come to light. Including events that disproportionately affect certain age groups.

I’m fully vaccinated (including first Covid vaccine) as are my kids but there is no way I’d let them be vaccinated in September. With any of the vaccines.

@NeverDropYourMoonCup

Clearly MN's sarcasm detection-filter is very very weak today...

@Totalbeach

People comparing it to the flu vaccine are missing the point.

A - The flu vaccine is very very widely used and understood.

B - Yes my children have it to protect the elderly and vulnerable. But since EVERY ADULT who wants it should be vaccinated by September, who are we vaccinating them to protect?

@Totalbeach I’ve two girls of secondary school age, one is a type 1 diabetic with another autoimmune disease and at a higher risk of being badly affected by covid, my other daughter is severely disabled and is cev. My eldest has had the vaccine, her younger sister who’s cev hasn’t as too young. So answer to option B is to protect other vulnerable people that have not yet had the vaccine or may be unable to have the vaccine for medical reasons.

Not everyone that vulnerable is old!

What about the relatively large number of kids suffering with long covid?

It’s actually a really small percentage of the U.K. child population that is thought to be suffering, and appears to be self resolving. Kids were not immune to post-viral illness before Covid either. Maybe more data will emerge on this but there is certainly not enough now to base an entire vaccination programme on.

@AuntMarilla

Kids in the U.K. are not at risk from Covid. Not even vulnerable kids. The mortality data is clear. They do spread it but that’s not an issue with a vaccinated population. Herd immunity will exist. There’s no justification for vaccinating children. But saying that, if people choose to vaccinate their kids that’s up to them.

How will people be able to vaccinate their children if children's trials held and a paediatric vaccine programme roles out to some degree?

You seem very assured that even children whose drs (in ds's case his consultants, GP and his geneticist) have suggested they would be at higher risk if they contract Covid, are wrong.

Sorry that should have said
How will people be able to vaccinate their children unless children's trials arebheld and a paediatric vaccine programme is roled out to some degree?

@HazeyJaneII

Sorry that should have said How will people be able to vaccinate their children unless children's trials arebheld and a paediatric vaccine programme is roled out to some degree?

Pediatric trials are underway now in the US.

When Will Kids Get COVID Vaccines? Pharmaceutical companies are starting clinical trials in young children and adolescents, but they must balance speed and safety

There is going to be a strong push to vaccinate kids in the US. The plan is to distribute the pediatric vaccines through pediatricians and GP's.

Here's part of the article:

Given that most kids are at low risk for complications from COVID, the need for a pediatric vaccine for the disease may not seem pressing. But scientists say the pandemic may never be fully controlled until kids are inoculated. When we only vaccinate adults, we leave vulnerable “an enormous, immunologically naive population,” says James H. Conway, a pediatrician and associate director for health sciences at the Global Health Institute at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health. Without a pediatric vaccine, “the disease, even if our kids don't get super sick with it, is going to be there and continue to circulate routinely.”

Indeed, recent research suggests infections among kids are more common than public health authorities realized. In a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention paper published earlier this month, researchers tested blood samples routinely collected from people younger than 18 in Mississippi between May and September 2020. Although the state had only received reports of about 9,000 COVID infections in kids through September, analyses of coronavirus antibodies in the blood suggested that roughly 114,000 of them had actually had the pathogen—meaning the virus had infected nearly 13 times more children and adolescents than the state had recorded.

Thank you @MissConductUS - we have been keeping a close eye on the vaccine trials, and before the AZ children's trial was paused, ds's paed was hopeful he would be vaccinated around Oct time...I'm not sure how that stands now (he is 10, so wouldn't come under the 12+ trials)

I was specifically saying that to @AuntMarilla, who earlier stated I genuinely don’t think the trials on kids should even be happening. I think they’re downright wrong and parents shouldn’t be allowed to volunteer their kids to be lab rats and seems very confident that there is no risk at all to children, even those children who have been deemed vulnerable by their doctors.

Without a pediatric vaccine, “the disease, even if our kids don't get super sick with it, is going to be there and continue to circulate routinely.”

But... so? Plenty of diseases are going to be there and continue to circulate routinely. The total eradication of childhood viruses has never been a consideration.

I agree with you @HazeyJaneII, that's why I posted the article earlier today about the fact that 21% of the covid cases here are among children and how we've had hundreds of pediatric deaths and thousands of hospitalizations. It's bonkers to think that we shouldn't have a pediatric covid vaccine. The US FDA and CDC clearly think we need one.

@Moonstone1234

I don’t understand when people clutch their children to their chests when vaccines are mentioned. Surely it isn’t just about them?

People have died from COVID vaccines.

So sorry, but I don’t care all that much about other people where my children are concerned. I won’t risk their health so elderly people with comorbidities can live a few months longer. And we don’t have to, because we have a vaccine that works for them (I personally did get vaxxed for personal reasons I won’t get into here)

@MissConductUS

I agree with you *@HazeyJaneII*, that's why I posted the article earlier today about the fact that 21% of the covid cases here are among children and how we've had hundreds of pediatric deaths and thousands of hospitalizations. It's bonkers to think that we shouldn't have a pediatric covid vaccine. The US FDA and CDC clearly think we need one.

Cases are going to skew younger because adults are getting vaccinated. Simples.

But cases don’t really matter. In the USA, just north of 200 kids have died of COVID. That’s less than a typical flu season. Less than swine flu (which was iirc scrapped because it caused some problems). And how many were without comorbidities?

I think parents would feel a lot better if children with comorbidities only got the vaccine under the recommendation of their GP. Certainly should never be a requirement for them.

[quote Lucidas]@NeverDropYourMoonCup

Clearly MN's sarcasm detection-filter is very very weak today...[/quote]
Sorry. Busy day dealing with teenagers.

I did note that some people seem to agree with it, though.

In the USA, just north of 200 kids have died of COVID. That’s less than a typical flu season.

From the article I quoted earlier:

But when you look at the top 10 causes of death, on an annual basis, this year, we've had, depending on whose numbers you use, somewhere between 300 and 600 pediatric deaths from COVID-19 so far. That's probably an undercount. And that would fit it somewhere in the top 10, somewhere between like number 6 and number 9 in terms of causes of death for children.

The CDC will issue guidelines for pediatric vaccination after looking at the clinical trial data and current disease statistics. It would be foolish to prejudge what those guidelines should be now.

@MissConductUS

In the USA, just north of 200 kids have died of COVID. That’s less than a typical flu season.

From the article I quoted earlier:

But when you look at the top 10 causes of death, on an annual basis, this year, we've had, depending on whose numbers you use, somewhere between 300 and 600 pediatric deaths from COVID-19 so far. That's probably an undercount. And that would fit it somewhere in the top 10, somewhere between like number 6 and number 9 in terms of causes of death for children.

The CDC will issue guidelines for pediatric vaccination after looking at the clinical trial data and current disease statistics. It would be foolish to prejudge what those guidelines should be now.

The whole premise of the article is weird though. Does anyone actually think we can eradicate COVID at this point? It’s endemic now—only Western countries have any chance of getting their populations fully vaccinated. And we certainly cannot keep the developing worlds isolated from our borders

The whole premise of the article is weird though. Does anyone actually think we can eradicate COVID at this point? It’s endemic now—only Western countries have any chance of getting their populations fully vaccinated. And we certainly cannot keep the developing worlds isolated from our borders

I don't think it's weird at all. Just because a disease can't be eradicated doesn't mean we don't vaccinate for it. When we have a measles outbreak in the US it's often started by someone returning or visiting from another country. We still vaccinate for measles.

If we only vaccinate diseases we could eradicate them the only vaccination would be for smallpox wouldn't it?

I don't get that argument. Can you explain your thinking please.

I know people have said 'vulnerable children' and I get that but there's almost no evidence that vulnerable children are actually at risk

‘Vulnerable children’? WTAF?!

Please be grateful your child isn’t vulnerable. Be grateful you don’t have to wake up in a morning and wonder if it’s this morning your child won’t wake up. Be grateful you’re not managing serious illness or disability in your child and worrying that covid just might be the one thing that pushes them over the edge.

Not all children are healthy by majority standards but can still expect to live a long and useful life. They too need to be in school with their peers, learning, making friends. Vaccinations are one of the things that make that possible.

@EnoughnowIthink

I know people have said 'vulnerable children' and I get that but there's almost no evidence that vulnerable children are actually at risk

‘Vulnerable children’? WTAF?!

Please be grateful your child isn’t vulnerable. Be grateful you don’t have to wake up in a morning and wonder if it’s this morning your child won’t wake up. Be grateful you’re not managing serious illness or disability in your child and worrying that covid just might be the one thing that pushes them over the edge.

Not all children are healthy by majority standards but can still expect to live a long and useful life. They too need to be in school with their peers, learning, making friends. Vaccinations are one of the things that make that possible.

I think you have really misunderstood what the poster meant. There is no evidence to show that CEV children are at greater risk from COVID that any other child. Therefore vaccination won't make any difference, if children, any children, aren't especially vulnerable to the disease.

Of course having a child who is very poorly is utterly heartbreaking. All of us parents know and understand that.

There is no evidence to show that CEV children are at greater risk from COVID that any other child

Source?

It's highly dependent on which condition the child has and how well it is under control

Not all DC were completely deshielded. And it's somewhat age dependent too - younger DC are 'safer' (in general as a population) but as they move into their teens they also approach adult disease patterns.

@nether

There is no evidence to show that CEV children are at greater risk from COVID that any other child

Source?

It's highly dependent on which condition the child has and how well it is under control

Not all DC were completely deshielded. And it's somewhat age dependent too - younger DC are 'safer' (in general as a population) but as they move into their teens they also approach adult disease patterns.

The source is the lack of evidence itself. Have you got evidence otherwise? Having analysed the lack of evidence in this area, I postulated that there is no evidence to support that hypothesis.

The source is the lack of evidence itself

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
CEV children have been shielding. This in itself means there isn’t likely to be the sort of evidence being demanded.

Look, if some of you don't want to vaccinate your kids, that's fine and dandy, just don't. If you would prefer your children to get covid rather than to have a vaccine, that's a choice you can make.

For those of us who have clinically vulnerable families, and for those people who are concerned about long term risks from covid for their children etc., then it's very encouraging that we may have the opportunity for our children to be protected from covid.

I really think it is bizarre that people would oppose this.

We still have limited information about covid and its long-term effects, but the evidence strongly suggests that the disease is worse for you than the vaccines. Even for people under 30.

There is no evidence to show that CEV children are at greater risk from COVID that any other child.

@btwwhichonespink I'm not sure what to say to this...I'm a little stumped by your assertion! However, 2 things...

1. All the medical people involved in ds's care, including the geneticist after whom ds's condition is named, have said that he is at greater risk from Covid...why would they say this if it wasn't true!
2. People with learning disabilities and complex needs have far poorer health outcomes than people without - due to the incredible difficulties associated with hospitalisation (ie not due to underlying health). This is one of the reasons why ds has a hospital passport, which health care professionals updated with us at the start of the pandemics, to reflect particular aspects of care that would be necessary were ds to contract covid. It was agreed that anything we could do to try and keep ds out of hospital during the worst times of the pandemic would be a very good idea.

@herecomesthsun

Look, if some of you don't want to vaccinate your kids, that's fine and dandy, just don't. If you would prefer your children to get covid rather than to have a vaccine, that's a choice you can make.

For those of us who have clinically vulnerable families, and for those people who are concerned about long term risks from covid for their children etc., then it's very encouraging that we may have the opportunity for our children to be protected from covid.

I really think it is bizarre that people would oppose this.

We still have limited information about covid and its long-term effects, but the evidence strongly suggests that the disease is worse for you than the vaccines. Even for people under 30.

I don’t think it’s bizarre at all. Will it be a case of ‘oh if you don’t want your child vaxx then dont’?? Talk of vaxx passports, peer pressure, government pressure. It means that people feel coerced into doing something they don’t want or feel deeply unhappy about. Vaxx for vulnerable kids - fine. But giving a trial vaccine to the entire child population before any long term data on the younger adult population at least = not fine. There are far far more implications than just ‘oh if you don’t want your kids to have it, don’t have it’

mobile.twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1326159716553265154

Matt Hancock, November

This vaccine WILL NOT be used for children