School pupils vaccinated from September

[Totalbeach]

This is in lots of papers today. Such as:

www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19274021.secondary-school-pupils-set-get-covid-jab-september/

And:

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/02/nhs-england-draws-up-plan-to-give-covid-jabs-to-children-12-and-over

What’s your reaction?

Mine is that I 100% won’t be allowing my children to be vaccinated.

In the whole pandemic so far, 12 children under 15 have died in the U.K. That increases to 32 in the under 20s. The mortality rate is vanishingly tiny. A huge percentage of kids don’t even get symptoms at all.

The government has assured us till they are blue in the face that schools are safe and that children don’t spread it so it will be interesting to see what kind of enormous gaslighting they attempt to pull off to persuade parents they now need to vaccinate their kids.

The long term effects of the vaccines are totally unknown and recent events with AZ have proved rather horribly that even after a vaccine is rolled out, serious effects can come to light. Including events that disproportionately affect certain age groups.

I’m fully vaccinated (including first Covid vaccine) as are my kids but there is no way I’d let them be vaccinated in September. With any of the vaccines.

Definitely not. I have already sacrificied one of my DC for the so called herd immunity with the "safe" standard childhood vaccinations, with the consequences of which we all have to live.

Bombolone

Sorry to hear that. I think some people just don’t think what others may be going through.

I don't think most teens would override their parents on purpose. But the way I look at it is that if the child's consent is sought after the parents have refused consent, how is this being done?

Is the child being taken into a room one-to-one with a nurse and being asked if they will have it? What information are they being given about it? We know that the authorities underplay the risks and exaggerate the benefits of these things, so how exactly is consent being sought in the event that parents have declined?

As a teenager I would have felt very nervous about saying 'no' in such a situation. I mean, I would have because I am like that but I worry about timid children like my daughter who would feel pressured.

So rather than just saying 'wait until you are 18' and letting it be, I would have to prep her with my view on the HPV vaccine so that she feels empowered to decline. Which is a shame because I would rather not influence her and let her come to her own conclusions when she is truly old enough.

@Bombolone

Definitely not. I have already sacrificied one of my DC for the so called herd immunity with the "safe" standard childhood vaccinations, with the consequences of which we all have to live.

Sorry to hear that @Bombolone.

I had a terrible reaction to a childhood vaccine and almost died. There are so many of us out there but our experiences are swept under the carpet.

I don't think most teens would override their parents on purpose. But the way I look at it is that if the child's consent is sought after the parents have refused consent, how is this being done?

They will call the kids who have parental consent and not call those without. Anyone without consent who wants the jab will be able to approach and ask for the jab but they certainly won’t seriously interview each child to ascertain their true desires.

@AuntMarilla

I don't think most teens would override their parents on purpose. But the way I look at it is that if the child's consent is sought after the parents have refused consent, how is this being done?

They will call the kids who have parental consent and not call those without. Anyone without consent who wants the jab will be able to approach and ask for the jab but they certainly won’t seriously interview each child to ascertain their true desires.

Okay, thanks @AuntMarilla. That is much better than it seems then. I don't have any argument with that scenario.

Thank you, @KaleSlayer and @btwwhichonespink I appreciate your kind words.

No. Not yet.

If trialling AZ on 30,000 people over 6 months was not enough to show the rare brain blood clots then I would not let my children have a vaccine trialled on 2,600 over 3 months.

They are just not at big enough risk of Covid in a simple risk benefit analysis.

The vaccines they have had have been around for years and protect them from things that could really make them very ill.

With the UK government granting immunity from liability for harms to all vaccine manufacturers, I don't feel I can ask my children to accept a greater risk than the manufacturers themselves are prepared to live with.

I am pro vax generally and my children have had all the other vaccines offered to them. I will be having the Covid vaccine next week and I wouldn't rule out them having it in the future, but not this year.

Nappyvalley15

By looking out for other countries with vaccines now we help ourselves in the long term.

Yes I expect you're right. It just feels like we've had such a terrible time with really high rates. We've only just got rates down & it just worries me that we're going to end up back in lockdown. The scenes from other countries are only where we were back in Jan/Feb - albeit with more oxygen & better NHS care & disposal of bodies at funeral parlours rather than pyres outdoors. But yes we do need to help others out where we can. I think everyone knows teens won't generally get ill - it's about transmission though.

Transmission isn't a problem if the people who will get sickest are largely vaccinated. I know people have said 'vulnerable children' and I get that but there's almost no evidence that vulnerable children are actually at risk.

@TattyDevine

No. Not yet.

If trialling AZ on 30,000 people over 6 months was not enough to show the rare brain blood clots then I would not let my children have a vaccine trialled on 2,600 over 3 months.

They are just not at big enough risk of Covid in a simple risk benefit analysis.

The vaccines they have had have been around for years and protect them from things that could really make them very ill.

With the UK government granting immunity from liability for harms to all vaccine manufacturers, I don't feel I can ask my children to accept a greater risk than the manufacturers themselves are prepared to live with.

I am pro vax generally and my children have had all the other vaccines offered to them. I will be having the Covid vaccine next week and I wouldn't rule out them having it in the future, but not this year.

I don’t think we’ll be approving it based on a trial of 2,600. The US is set to approve Pfizer for 12-15 year olds this week, so the UK would probably approve it on the back of their mass childhood rollout, and after many months.

In the same way that pregnant women have been given the green light in the UK based on 90,000 pregnant women receiving the jab in the US.

Agreed with the consensus. The vast majority of teens never override their patents’ wishes when it comes to putting drugs and other questionable substances into their bodies. And rightly so.

@AuntMarilla

Transmission isn't a problem if the people who will get sickest are largely vaccinated. I know people have said 'vulnerable children' and I get that but there's almost no evidence that vulnerable children are actually at risk.

I know people have said 'vulnerable children' and I get that but there's almost no evidence that vulnerable children are actually at risk. So do you think the Drs who advised ds to shield, did so on a whim? Is this statement based on any knowledge or experience of young people with medical vulnerabilities and complex needs in a hospital setting?

@Lucidas

Agreed with the consensus. The vast majority of teens never override their patents’ wishes when it comes to putting drugs and other questionable substances into their bodies. And rightly so.

What consensus would that be then? As there is a range of different opinions here,based on different circumstances and preferences?

If the government offers the option for 12-15s to have the vaccine, then people and their children will be free to accept or refuse as they wish, and I don't see how anyone could argue with that.Presumably that is the consensus?

I know people have said 'vulnerable children' and I get that but there's almost no evidence that vulnerable children are actually at risk.

So do you think the Drs who advised ds to shield, did so on a whim?

No, they did so from a point of view of knowing very little about this novel disease and utmost caution, as you’d hope and expect. However, much of the shielding for children was later removed when it became more and more clear that this disease interacts with children’s immune systems in a far less serious way than we had been seeing in adults. Children were not put into barrels to shield - they had family members who worked and shopped (even if you personally didn’t) and some who went to school. And of course many, many vulnerable children were in hospital and some in hospice care. The 12 children under 15 who sadly died includes all vulnerable children who caught Covid. It’s a very low number. That’s why there’s almost no evidence that vulnerable children are at risk, thankfully. Certainly no evidence to base a mass childhood vaccination programme to protect them on.

@SilverGlitterBaubles

I would like to see a study on the level of antibodies/ T cell immunity in those 12 and above. It is quite possible that many have been exposed to Covid already in which case is the vaccine necessary? I am pro vaccine and have had my first dose but I will be more cautious about vaccines for my teen DCs.

You can keep an eye on the ONS website. As with all such studies, the results take a while to be published.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/covid19schoolsinfectionsurveyround2england/december2020#percentage-of-pupils-testing-positive-for-coronavirus-covid-19-antibodies

@AuntMarilla

I know people have said 'vulnerable children' and I get that but there's almost no evidence that vulnerable children are actually at risk.

So do you think the Drs who advised ds to shield, did so on a whim?

No, they did so from a point of view of knowing very little about this novel disease and utmost caution, as you’d hope and expect. However, much of the shielding for children was later removed when it became more and more clear that this disease interacts with children’s immune systems in a far less serious way than we had been seeing in adults. Children were not put into barrels to shield - they had family members who worked and shopped (even if you personally didn’t) and some who went to school. And of course many, many vulnerable children were in hospital and some in hospice care. The 12 children under 15 who sadly died includes all vulnerable children who caught Covid. It’s a very low number. That’s why there’s almost no evidence that vulnerable children are at risk, thankfully. Certainly no evidence to base a mass childhood vaccination programme to protect them on.

no evidence to base a mass childhood vaccination programme to protect them on.

I don't agree with this, but I have to take DC to hospital. I will reply at more length later.

@AuntMarilla, I have said nothing about a mass vaccination programme for children, but obviously if vulnerable children are to be vaccinated then medical trials on children would need to occur, something about which you feel I genuinely don’t think the trials on kids should even be happening. I think they’re downright wrong and parents shouldn’t be allowed to volunteer their kids to be lab rats

Yes a lot of children were removed from the shielding lists, of the children I know with medical vulnerabilities several were told to continue to shield by their consultants, and others trialled going back only to be told it would be safest to stay off school and learn from home as cases rose in the run up to Christmas and most have only just returned to school either just before or just after the Easter break.
Your knowledge of shielding families, the reasons for shielding and the difficulties they may have faced seems different to mine.
Yes it is rare for children to die of Covid, but ds is rare, and illness and hospitalisation in normal times is hard enough for him, obviously we have listened to several drs and professionals for their opinion on whether it is worth risking him catching Covid, vaccinations and how to make our way through the last year in as beneficial way as possible.

Good luck at hospital @herecomesthsun

Thanks borntobequiet. That is really interesting. I wonder if they are also looking at t-cells.

Here's some food for thought:

Children now account for 22 percent of new U.S. COVID cases. Why is that?

There's no paywall. Here's an excerpt:

Now, the part where that conversation about severity gets a little bit more complicated is yes, it is absolutely true that it's less severe in kids than it is in adults, and particularly older adults. But it's also not true to say that it's completely benign in kids. Fortunately, pediatric death is a fairly rare event. But when you look at the top 10 causes of death, on an annual basis, this year, we've had, depending on whose numbers you use, somewhere between 300 and 600 pediatric deaths from COVID-19 so far. That's probably an undercount. And that would fit it somewhere in the top 10, somewhere between like number 6 and number 9 in terms of causes of death for children.

So the point I'm making there is that yes, it's less severe, but it's still potentially a very severe disease. We've seen tens of thousands of hospitalizations already. So we do need a vaccine for children, not just to protect, not just to achieve herd immunity, but also to protect the children themselves.

There are reports that the US FDA is going to issue emergency use authorization for the Pfizer vaccine for children in the next few weeks. I've no idea what age range. I think that if the phase III safety numbers look good and it's then been in use in the US in large numbers without significant adverse events the case becomes much stronger that kids should get the vaccine.

@Lucidas

Agreed with the consensus. The vast majority of teens never override their patents’ wishes when it comes to putting drugs and other questionable substances into their bodies. And rightly so.

Oh, dear. Teenagers never drink, smoke, vape or take drugs unless their parents have given them permission to do so?

Kids in the U.K. are not at risk from Covid. Not even vulnerable kids. The mortality data is clear. They do spread it but that’s not an issue with a vaccinated population. Herd immunity will exist. There’s no justification for vaccinating children. But saying that, if people choose to vaccinate their kids that’s up to them.

Oh, dear. Teenagers never drink, smoke, vape or take drugs unless their parents have given them permission to do so?

The vast majority of teens would trust their parents with medical decisions.

@AuntMarilla

Kids in the U.K. are not at risk from Covid. Not even vulnerable kids. The mortality data is clear. They do spread it but that’s not an issue with a vaccinated population. Herd immunity will exist. There’s no justification for vaccinating children. But saying that, if people choose to vaccinate their kids that’s up to them.

What about the relatively large number of kids suffering with long covid?