School pupils vaccinated from September

[Totalbeach]

This is in lots of papers today. Such as:

www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19274021.secondary-school-pupils-set-get-covid-jab-september/

And:

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/02/nhs-england-draws-up-plan-to-give-covid-jabs-to-children-12-and-over

What’s your reaction?

Mine is that I 100% won’t be allowing my children to be vaccinated.

In the whole pandemic so far, 12 children under 15 have died in the U.K. That increases to 32 in the under 20s. The mortality rate is vanishingly tiny. A huge percentage of kids don’t even get symptoms at all.

The government has assured us till they are blue in the face that schools are safe and that children don’t spread it so it will be interesting to see what kind of enormous gaslighting they attempt to pull off to persuade parents they now need to vaccinate their kids.

The long term effects of the vaccines are totally unknown and recent events with AZ have proved rather horribly that even after a vaccine is rolled out, serious effects can come to light. Including events that disproportionately affect certain age groups.

I’m fully vaccinated (including first Covid vaccine) as are my kids but there is no way I’d let them be vaccinated in September. With any of the vaccines.

www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/vaxzevria-previously-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca

"
The most common side effects with Vaxzevria in the trials were usually mild or moderate and got better within a few days after vaccination. The most common side effects are pain and tenderness at the injection site, headache, tiredness, muscle pain, general feeling of being unwell, chills, fever, joint pain and nausea. They affected more than 1 in 10 people.

Thrombocytopenia (low levels of blood platelets), vomiting, diarrhoea, swelling and redness at the injection site occurred in less than 1 in 10 people. Lymphadenopathy (enlarged lymph nodes), decreased appetite, dizziness, sleepiness, sweating, abdominal (belly) pain, itching and rash occurred in less than 1 in 100 people. Thrombosis (formation of blood clots in the blood vessels) in combination with thrombocytopenia occurred in less than 1 in 10,000 people.

Allergic reactions have occurred in people receiving the vaccine, including some cases of severe allergic reactions (anaphylaxis). As for all vaccines, Vaxzevria should be given under close supervision with appropriate medical treatment available."

I can't find what you're referring to so a link would be really helpful.

That doesn't appear to be 'new data', Herecomes

Less than 1 in 10, 1 in 100, 1 in 1,000, 1 in 10,000 are the standard categories for adverse events. Less than 1 in 10,000 is the 'very rare' category - they don't have a category after that.

www.hematology.org/covid-19/vaccine-induced-immune-thrombotic-thrombocytopenia

also www.independent.co.uk/news/science/covid-brain-clot-astrazeneca-vaccine-b1831876.html

“Firstly, Covid-19 markedly increases the risk of CVT, adding to the list of blood clotting problems this infection causes,” he said.

“Secondly, the Covid-19 risk is higher than seen with the current vaccines, even for those under 30; something that should be taken into account when considering the balances between risks and benefits for vaccination.”

I@noblegiraffe It is what the PP was referring to, I think. I'm with Paul Harrison on this one.

Ok the bit I found was from
www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine-benefits-risks-context
And says
Known benefits and risk of Vaxzevria
Vaxzevria is effective at preventing hospitalisations, intensive care unit (ICU) admissions and deaths due to COVID-19. The most common side effects are usually mild or moderate and get better within a few days. The most serious side effects are very rare cases of unusual blood clots with low blood platelets, which are estimated to occur in 1 in 100,000 vaccinated people.

I can't see anywhere it says it occurs in 1 in 10,000 (as opposed to less than 1 in 10,000)

@Roonerspismed?

It's quite important to me, as we will (hopefully soon) be having a conversation about risks/benefits with ds's consultants and I'd like to know the best questions to ask.

Sorry, Herecomes, you are way ahead of me on this one, I have no idea who Paul Harrison is! I noted Rooner said two days ago the risk was 1/20,000 and today said it was 1/10,000 so really want to see where her specific data is coming from.

'Less than 1 in 10,000' is a tick box category not actual data, she seems to be referring to actual data.

I would get DS vaccinated without question. I would ask for advice re DD as she only has one kidney - and if there were no contraindicators I would go ahead.

My eldest is 15 and it will be his choice. I’m pretty sure he’ll choose to have it. Pfizer is licensed for over 16 anyway so he’d be entitled to it this time next year anyway if he wants it.

My youngest is 12 and has additional needs. I think he will also be willing to have it.

@Totalbeach

People comparing it to the flu vaccine are missing the point.

A - The flu vaccine is very very widely used and understood.

B - Yes my children have it to protect the elderly and vulnerable. But since EVERY ADULT who wants it should be vaccinated by September, who are we vaccinating them to protect?

Mine were very small when swine flu was around. That vaccine seemed to come from nowhere. I know some people didn’t let their kids have it but I did without a second thought. I know there have been other flu vaccines but this one seemed to be developed quickly as well

I wonder if it will be like other secondary school vaccines. We have had consent forms for those home and the form makes very clear that even if you refuse your child will be able to override this.

I don’t think most teens would override their parents though. My kids trust me so I know if I said not to have the vaccine, they wouldn’t.

@KaleSlayer

I don’t think most teens would override their parents though. My kids trust me so I know if I said not to have the vaccine, they wouldn’t.

I think that's probably true of younger teens. By the time kids are 15/16, they're much more likely to have opinions of their own. I know that quite a lot of my dd's friends consider their parents to be very ignorant...

@noblegiraffe

Paul Harrison is a Professor in Oxford who recently analysed the risks associated with covis vaccination.

"Researchers at the University of Oxford, who are not linked to the vaccine, also found that people infected with coronavirus are “manyfold times” more likely than normal to develop the rare clotting disorder, known as cerebral venous thrombosis (CVT), where blood clots in the veins that run from the brain.

“There’s no doubt that Covid is a much greater risk of this [condition] than any of the vaccines,” said Professor Paul Harrison, a co-author of the study.

The research, which has yet to be peer-reviewed, drew comparisons between more than 500,000 Covid-19 patients in the US and 34 million people in Europe who have received the AstraZeneca vaccine, as well as the background level of CVT in the general population.

For Covid-19, the incidence rate of CVT stands at 39 cases per one million people, the study showed. But for a million people vaccinated with the AstraZeneca jab, there will be just five cases of CVT over a two-week period."

I think that's probably true of younger teens. By the time kids are 15/16, they're much more likely to have opinions of their own. I know that quite a lot of my dd's friends consider their parents to be very ignorant...

It depends on the relationship I suppose. My oldest child is 17 and I know if I told him I didn’t think he should have it then he wouldn’t. He obviously has his own opinions but he also knows that as his mum, I would want the right thing for him, and he doesn’t consider me to be ignorant.

I won’t be having the vaccine but both my children are capable of deciding for themselves so they will.

@btwwhichonespink

Maybe. I thought I knew it all when I was a teenager. In reality I was still clueless into my 20s.

Vaccines appear to be the only area where the state tries to bypass the parent for consent. They wouldn't take my kid on a trip to London without my permission, so how can they give them a medical treatment that could (in extremely rare cases I acknowledge) mame them for life? What if the parent knows something about the medical history that the child does not?

Vaccines appear to be the only area where the state tries to bypass the parent for consent. Not true. This is where the phrase "Gillick Competence" comes from. It dates back to a legal case in the 1980s where a woman called Victoria Gillick did not agree with children under 16 being given contraception without parental consent. The ruling was against her in that it was decided that children under 16 could consent for themselves if they were "competent". "As a matter of Law the parental right to determine whether or not their minor child below the age of sixteen will have medical treatment terminates if and when the child achieves sufficient understanding and intelligence to understand fully what is proposed." It has become standard caselaw.

@KaleSlayer

I think that's probably true of younger teens. By the time kids are 15/16, they're much more likely to have opinions of their own. I know that quite a lot of my dd's friends consider their parents to be very ignorant...

It depends on the relationship I suppose. My oldest child is 17 and I know if I told him I didn’t think he should have it then he wouldn’t. He obviously has his own opinions but he also knows that as his mum, I would want the right thing for him, and he doesn’t consider me to be ignorant.

I won’t be having the vaccine but both my children are capable of deciding for themselves so they will.

Partly it depends on the relationship, yes, but it also depends on how rational and reasonable the parent's argument is. An intelligent teenager is not going to blindly agree with everything their parents tell them if it clearly flies in the face of logic, regardless of how close their relationship is.

Of course, if the child concludes that their parent is ignorant and illogical, it's likely that this will impact negatively on their relationship in any case.

@KaleSlayer

I don’t think most teens would override their parents though. My kids trust me so I know if I said not to have the vaccine, they wouldn’t.

I’m pretty sure my kids trust me as well but my eldest is 15 and more than capable of making his own decisions on such matters. Hence I will leave it to him to decide.

FWIW, I know that my dc trusts me too, but she would be the first to tell me that this is because I don't regularly come out with statements that she regards as stupid or ignorant.

Partly it depends on the relationship, yes, but it also depends on how rational and reasonable the parent's argument is. An intelligent teenager is not going to blindly agree with everything their parents tell them if it clearly flies in the face of logic, regardless of how close their relationship is.

Well if I wasn’t rational and reasonable, then I’d expect my relationship with my children to be poor.
The thing with this vaccine is that for a healthy 17 year old, theres not really much risk of not having the vaccine. There’s also not much risk of having it the vaccine or of having covid. That’s why I don’t really care if my kids have it or not.

I agree @paralysedbyinertia

I certainly also wouldn’t see it as my place to try and tell a 17 year old what to do with regard to medical treatment. Well if he was refusing life saving chemo or something I would but at 17 a NT kid should be capable of and entitled to make their own decisions. I’d offer guidance of course and my opinion but I would not be telling him what to do.

Read my post. I’m not telling my 17 or 13 year old anything. They’ll both choose for themselves. I’m just saying that they wouldn’t go against my advice if I said I didn’t think they should have the vaccine. I don’t think many teens would, if they know their parents are intelligent and care about them.

Is it ethical to vaccinate healthy children in the UK who I think we can all agree are low risk of death when the vaccinations would save many more lives in India and potentially sub-Saharan Africa?

@Boph yes I know all about Gillick competence thanks. I mean you only see it used in vaccinations. I think it rarely ever comes up in other areas of medicine where children are, I think, coerced into having treatment against their parent's wishes.

Like I said in the post you copied, they wouldn't take my child on a school trip without my consent even though she could consent herself. But medical treatment that could radically alter the rest of her life is okay. I absolutely don't agree with it at all for reasons I have already laid out.

@KaleSlayer

Read my post. I’m not telling my 17 or 13 year old anything. They’ll both choose for themselves. I’m just saying that they wouldn’t go against my advice if I said I didn’t think they should have the vaccine. I don’t think many teens would, if they know their parents are intelligent and care about them.

I think what I'm saying is that an intelligent teen would evaluate the evidence for themselves and come to their own conclusions. If they conclude that the parent's advice is sound, then obviously they would follow that advice because they agree with it anyway. If they conclude that the advice is flawed, then I would hope that they would not blindly do as their parents tell them.

Of course, children who are not capable of weighing up the evidence for themselves will default to following their parents' advice, but I hope that those who are old enough and intelligent enough to make up their own minds would do so. And that caring and intelligent parents would encourage this.