Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “could be considered” amid rise in blood clots

[Whichjab]

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/astrazeneca-vaccine-side-effects-blood-clots-under-40-b931498.html

This is concerning, especially as there is limited research into combining vaccinations. I feel that the trust in vaccination is being eroded. I have always been pro vacc but feeling much less so atm.
I'm not sure I will get my second jab now.

@nordica

go to the back of the queue to wait for Pfizer/Moderna

At this point I may well consider doing that if I knew it's an option. Would also happily pay for a vaccine if that was an option. We are not really being told what the options are though, and if waiting longer means an alternative to AZ will be available.

It's hardly entitled to wonder about it when scientists in the MHRA are themselves considering the options and already said it shouldn't be given to under 30s. By doing that they are clearly admitting there is a risk.

I never said it was entitled @nordica, I do wonder about people's ability to assess risk and wonder if they were happy to accept all other vaccinations/take medication when needed. Whether they drive a car, cross the road, take illegal drugs, the list of things riskier then the AZ vaccine is endless but that's up to individuals to make their own choices.

They haven't said it can't be used in under 30s, just that an alternative should be offered to this age group because for them, the risks of coronavirus and the vaccine are more finely balanced than for over 30s.

@walkaround
I gather you do not know that the largest manufacturer of AZ vaccines is in India and that the UKs deliveries of AZ vaccines have been indefinitely delayed? I agree there is a vaccine shortage, but you seem to think AZ is in plentiful supply and available sooner......

[quote Fieldofmemes]@IcedPurple and this is exactly the problem. Young, healthy people are being coerced into having a medical intervention which carries a known risk of death. NO choice is being offered, other than NOT having a vaccine AT ALL - even if you are willing to pay! - and choosing no vaccine at all not only leaves you vulnerable to Covid but also will shut you out of certain parts of society and leave you marginalised. We are supposed to be a democratic society and the medical profession is supposed to proceed on the basis of "do no harm" and "informed consent". I have never seen the UK democratic process threatened in such a fundamental way as it has been regarding the AZ vaccine. Lives are being put at risk in order to promote the agenda of the government (extensive, fast vaccine rollout which they can trumpet as a great success in order to make up for the appalling mismanagement of the past year). The high risk have now been vaccinated; the UK should slow the rollout to the low risk cohorts while they get OTHER VACCINES. We should give spare AZ vaccines to countries that are in a desperate state and need them as an emergency (where the risks are justified). And this viewpoint isn't just mine - it is shared by at least 10 other countries.[/quote]
I agree with this completely.

I reviewed all the information I can and I won't be having the AZ vaccine (for multiple reasons not just the blood clots issue). Not sure how that's going to go down yet as my only option seems to be to turn up and refuse it if that's the one offered. Not massively comfortable with wasting NHS time like that but there doesn't appear to be any way around it.

You are at more risk of having a blood clot having caught covid than after the vaccine. The inability to access risk is the problem. If you read the side effects of prescription drugs, pain killers and other vaccines that you take quite happily I bet you would be scared of them too.

@HolmeH

Bore off & refuse your jab. These threads are exhausting. I’ve taken the contraceptive pill for 20 years which also carries a risk of clots & death at a far higher rate. Me & millions of others. I’ll continue to take my pill & I’ll get my jab. Life is a risk, I also enjoy sky diving, deffo risk of death 😅

On the contrary, the doctor wouldn't prescribe the pill for me, as I have a history of migraines (linked to clots). Some are at higher risk than others. Also, I've seen a nasty reaction from the AZ in a family member (in their 30s). Easy to be carefree when you can't relate to either of those experiences.

@AliceBlueGown

You are at more risk of having a blood clot having caught covid than after the vaccine. The inability to access risk is the problem. If you read the side effects of prescription drugs, pain killers and other vaccines that you take quite happily I bet you would be scared of them too.

@AliceBlueGown agree completely, the ability to assess risk has seemingly gone out the window.

Or, @PlanDeRaccordement, are you really arguing that we should be selfless and not protect ourselves, because India needs the vaccines more, so they should all be sent back there (even though you simultaneously think the AZ vaccine is a dangerous killer)?

[quote Walkaround]@PlanDeRaccordement- are you being deliberately dim? If you know a shortage is already in the pipeline, you don’t throw away what you’ve already got!!! Why are you intent on making the situation worse?![/quote]
I’m sorry but I think you simply do not grasp that AZ vaccines do in fact expire and that the U.K. does not “already have” enough to finish roll out....

@Walkaround

Or, *@PlanDeRaccordement*, are you really arguing that we should be selfless and not protect ourselves, because India needs the vaccines more, so they should all be sent back there (even though you simultaneously think the AZ vaccine is a dangerous killer)?

No. I’ve said nothing to indicate that. That’s quite a leap of logic you have there....

Though I would say the U.K. forcing India to send them vaccines while in the midst of a Covid crisis is akin to the U.K. forcing Ireland to export them corn when Ireland was suffering a crisis of famine....

Not that the U.K. would do that with the delayed vaccines. They are so far accepting the delays and just “going without” why they haven’t approached Pfizer or Moderna like the EU and Canada have for extra deliveries is beyond me.

[quote Walkaround]@bumbleymummy - except no vaccine provides 100% protection for everyone vaccinated from anything, whether serious illness, death or mild illness, so actually you are wrong, you still need critical mass, particularly when length of immunity is uncertain.[/quote]
No, it isn’t guaranteed but that’s not what you said, is it? You said ‘vaccines don’t work unless enough people are vaccinated’. That is incorrect. The majority of vaccinated people are protected against serious illness/death, regardless of how many other people around them have been vaccinated.

@bumbleymummy - why do you think we haven’t fully opened up society again already? Why do you think that, whilst most people are protected by the MMR, it is dangerous to have low vaccination rates? The vaccinated are still put at risk by the unvaccinated if enough people are unvaccinated.

@Nodal

My son's friend with severe asthma would disagree with you.

And healthy young people will benefit from the vaccination program - lockdown will end, they can go back to school and college, play sports, travel, see the world, hang out with mates, got to clubs and parties and generally enjoy being young people - massive benefit to them and their mental health.

Tell your friend that asthma doesn’t make you more susceptible to COVID.

Also, lololol at young adults needing vaccines to live normally. In case you hadn’t noticed, there are places where the young, healthy population can live relatively normally; I suggest you look at US states like Florida and see what the alternative could be ..... lockdowns will prove to be the most harmful health intervention we’ve tried in years.

@PlanDeRaccordement - so you are saying we should stop using the Az vaccine now because we will eventually run out of it?! Not getting your logic at all. And the EU is now at the back of a long queue for favoured vaccines, so you want the UK to stop its current programme altogether and join the queue behind the EU, because we all know how well countries and trading blocks react to being at the back of a queue?!

@UsedUpUsername other nations would disagree with you. Asthmatics are prioritised in many countries.

We are reopening, just slowly so we can gauge the effect of easing restrictions at each stage. It may help to inform future decisions about what restrictions are most worthwhile.

Vaccinated people are not usually at risk from unvaccinated people unless the vaccinated person hasn’t actually developed sufficient immunity after their vaccine. I think you might be a bit confused about how vaccines work.

The problem is that the UK has relied overwhelmingly on ONE vaccine - and pushed a patriotic narrative that this "British, lifesaving jab" would be the magic bullet which would get us out of the Covid crisis thereby proving us inherently superior to the EU / rest of the world once again. When any scientist could tell you that serious side effects can and do emerge once any new drug/vaccine is used in the real world - especially when it has only been trialled for a short time - so the sensible plan would have been to have equivalent numbers of other vaccines on order from the outset. It is THIS one-vaccine-above-all-others policy that has left us without the choices that other countries now have.

[quote Walkaround]@bumbleymummy - why do you think we haven’t fully opened up society again already? Why do you think that, whilst most people are protected by the MMR, it is dangerous to have low vaccination rates? The vaccinated are still put at risk by the unvaccinated if enough people are unvaccinated.[/quote]
You’re a bit mixed up. A vaccinated person isn’t endangered by an unvaccinated person ever. Otherwise what we have is called “vaccine failure”. The reason why MMR vaccination rates need to be high is to protect those who cannot be vaccinated due to medical reasons or young age. As in infants under age 1, who are too young for the MMR for example.

@AliceBlueGown

You are at more risk of having a blood clot having caught covid than after the vaccine. The inability to access risk is the problem. If you read the side effects of prescription drugs, pain killers and other vaccines that you take quite happily I bet you would be scared of them too.

Risk isn’t a flat number for the population, everyone has a different risk profile and AZ seems to be riskier for the younger age groups than COVID.

Why choose to get a medical intervention that could cause you more harm? The older and more vulnerable groups, of course, have a different set of factors

And to add to that, unvaccinated people aren’t necessarily a risk anyway unless they’re actually carrying the disease :) (vaccinated, non-immune people could therefore also pose a risk to others)

[quote Walkaround]@PlanDeRaccordement - so you are saying we should stop using the Az vaccine now because we will eventually run out of it?! Not getting your logic at all. And the EU is now at the back of a long queue for favoured vaccines, so you want the UK to stop its current programme altogether and join the queue behind the EU, because we all know how well countries and trading blocks react to being at the back of a queue?![/quote]
No, not saying that either. Any other “so are you saying.....insert something ridiculous heres” that you want to post?

@bumbleymummy - not confused at all, thanks. The lower the percentage of people vaccinated, the bigger the effect on those who did not gain optimal immunity. Presumably also in the case of covid 19, also the greater the chances of a dangerous mutation that evades vaccination altogether arriving in the less distant future, because too many unprotected people are mixing together.

@Whichjab

It does fuck me off when people say 'ageism alive and well' when people question the policy of vaccinating people who are statistically unlikely to have complications from covid in order to protect the old or unwell. Why should the desire to protect the old and unwell trump a young person's desire to protect themselves?

If you're referring to my earlier post, you didn't read it properly. I said ableism. Something you're displaying in your above post - the old or unwell. Specifically the 'or unwell' bit (admittedly it's a ageist post too). Who do you think 'the unwell' are? (Well managed chronic health conditions do not equal unwell btw). Millions of them are under 65. They are the young.

@PlanDeRaccordement - so you are saying people should have a choice, which they already do. They can wait until more supplies of the other vaccines are available so that they can have the luxury of choice (you only have genuine choice in situations of excess), or they can take the risk of an AZ vaccine now. They can’t pick and choose now, or the most at risk from its side effects will be the ones that end up with AZ, because older people than them chose the other vaccines.

Please don't make the "contraceptive pill" argument again. There is a CHOICE of contraception available in this country. There is NO CHOICE of vaccine available in this country. The clots caused by the Pill are different - they are not combined with thrombocytopaenia, which is what makes the AZ Vaccine-Induced Thrombotic Thrombocytopaenia (VITT) so unusual and difficult to treat. And finally, no one is threatening to cut you out of society if you don't take the contraceptive pill.