Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “could be considered” amid rise in blood clots

[Whichjab]

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/astrazeneca-vaccine-side-effects-blood-clots-under-40-b931498.html

This is concerning, especially as there is limited research into combining vaccinations. I feel that the trust in vaccination is being eroded. I have always been pro vacc but feeling much less so atm.
I'm not sure I will get my second jab now.

@Walkaround

Your previous statements would suggest otherwise.

Also worth noting that infection can also provide immunity so even if someone is unvaccinated, they may still be immune.

I’m not really going to get worked up about potential mutations arising in the U.K. if we don’t vaccinate all the children when there are millions of unvaccinated people ‘mixing together’ around the world. I think our priority should be second doses for the top 9 priority groups rather than trying to coerce younger people into vaccines that offer them little personal benefit given their already minimal risk.

@Fieldofmemes
“The problem is that the UK has relied overwhelmingly on ONE vaccine - and pushed a patriotic narrative that this "British, lifesaving jab" would be the magic bullet which would get us out of the Covid crisis thereby proving us inherently superior to the EU / rest of the world once again.”

My cynical side had also thought this is a factor in U.K. decision to not allow citizens any choice in vaccine. It seems to me, central to informed consent that it not be coerced and one MP said it was “take it or leave it”....as in take what you’re given, no choice or forgo being vaccinated altogether and accept higher risk of Covid. The leaders seem very invested in being first to have everyone vaccinated and the U.K. economy on path to recovery such that they are accepting more and more risk..... I was surprised when the blood clot risk went from 1 in a million to 8 in a million in a matter of a week that nothing changed.

[quote CovidHalloween]@UsedUpUsername other nations would disagree with you. Asthmatics are prioritised in many countries.[/quote]
So? Loads of countries are recommending strategies that are not evidence based.

Where’s the evidence that asthmatics are vulnerable?

www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210224/covid-no-more-deadly-for-people-with-asthma

I’m not really going to get worked up about potential mutations arising in the U.K. if we don’t vaccinate all the children when there are millions of unvaccinated people ‘mixing together’ around the world. I think our priority should be second doses for the top 9 priority groups rather than trying to coerce younger people into vaccines that offer them little personal benefit given their already minimal risk

Right? Just vaccinate those at-risk and those who want it and get on with it.

There’s no way we are gonna get the entire global population vaccinated in a timeframe that actually makes any sense, are we?

I think our priority should be second doses for the top 9 priority groups rather than trying to coerce younger people into vaccines that offer them little personal benefit given their already minimal risk.

As a young person who has spent the past year having to listen to 'it's not only the elderly at risk- lots of young people end up unwell in hospital too' I'd have been pissed off to have my concerns about coronavirus brushed off as 'minimal risk' and not been given the opportunity of the vaccine.

I'm a single mum of two primary aged children- I want to be well for their sakes. I'm glad I've had my vaccine now.

@bumbleymummy - it is only your opinion that the over 45s are low risk - it’s not as if the national programme has got any lower than that. Also, society has still not opened up much - it’s mainly young people’s livelihoods on the line as a result. There is clearly little scientific, medical or political appetite for slowing the vaccination programme now and opening up anyway, so imvho it’s a tiny risk of getting a brain clot versus a massive risk of unemployment. From my selfish perspective, I’ll therefore take the tiny risk of a blood clot.

@Walkaround
so you are saying people should have a choice, which they already do.

Yes people should have a choice. No, British people from what I can see reported do not have ability to choose which Covid vaccine they get. They are not told which vaccine they will get until the moment of injection. At that point, they can only refuse and then forgo vaccination at that appointment with no guarantee any vaccination appointment will ever be offered again or that they will be able to choose if one is offered again. That’s not choice. That’s coercion to accept what you’re given.

@UsedUpUsername you are asking me questions as if I’m the medical body governing those countries, I’m sure they have their reasons as to who to prioritise as vaccines are in limited supply and they have to think carefully how they roll them to who need it the most first.
And if we were to start this argument about scientific evidence to prioritise people, why did the Uk prioritise women who had gestational diabetes years ago?

My cousin lives in the UAE. He said they get a choice of vaccines over there, why can’t we?

The majority of the AZ vaccines for the UK are not made in India.

Originally we were not going to get any from India.

The vaccines ordered from SII were to speed up the roll-out.

@PlanDeRaccordement - what rubbish. If you refuse the vaccine now, you are offered it again later - they are still offering vaccination to people over 50 who refused it before, they don’t strike them off the list forever. I’m sure if there were ever a massive over-supply of vaccines, or enough vaccines to offer the wealthy a choice, this country would jump on that bandwagon, as it has never been averse to inequality.

@Walkaround
From my selfish perspective, I’ll therefore take the tiny risk of a blood clot.

I don’t think your perspective is selfish at all. But since you would personally choose to take the risk, why are you so strongly arguing that everyone else must come to the same decision as you and take the tiny risk of a blood clot? Isn’t that a bit autocratic of you? You have to know everyone has different risk profiles based on age, gender, medical conditions, and different benefits levels to you. For example a person with blood clot history that is employed, works from home, and is voluntarily self-isolating. Their factors are different from yours, so is it so wrong for them to desire to be able to make a different choice from you?

[quote Walkaround]@PlanDeRaccordement - what rubbish. If you refuse the vaccine now, you are offered it again later - they are still offering vaccination to people over 50 who refused it before, they don’t strike them off the list forever. I’m sure if there were ever a massive over-supply of vaccines, or enough vaccines to offer the wealthy a choice, this country would jump on that bandwagon, as it has never been averse to inequality.[/quote]
No rubbish. There is no guarantee you will be offered it again. I didn’t say that people were “struck off the the list forever” ....if I’m wrong show me where the NHS has guaranteed vaccine refusers alternate vaccines and appointments?

@Walkaround Actually it’s the JCVI’s opinion that the over 50s/CV are the most at risk groups. Why do you think we rolled out the vaccines in the order that we did?

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

I have no problem with younger people being offered the vaccine. I just strongly disagree with coercing people into something they don’t want or actually need in order to integrate back into society. I would also rather see the more at risk groups being fully vaccinated as priority because they are the ones most likely to end up seriously ill in hospital, overwhelming the NHS, and that is what we’ve been trying to avoid with lockdowns.

@Walkaround
So this article is not true then?
www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/take-leave-it-over-covid-5326102

Some people fearful of the Oxford/Astra-Zenaca vaccine are being told there is no other choice

“At an individual practice level you will have these queries coming through about ‘is there an alternative that people can use’ but, fundamentally, there is not a choice on this on an individual level, this is dictated by national supply.

“Saying it bluntly it is take it or leave it, but actually the people who leave it are very few indeed. Uptake is very solid and very substantial.”

@bumbleymummy I agree that no one should be coerced into having the vaccine.

As for vaccinating the priority groups being fully vaccinated, I was actually really pleased to see the NHS take the decision to get a first dose of vaccine into as many people as possible- this has massively increased the number of higher-risk people getting a really good level of protection and has also helped get the levels of the virus much lower which benefits everyone. The stats show just how good one dose is at reducing death and hospitalisation so I think they made the right call on it.

And @bumbleymummy just to add further on no one should be forced to accept the vaccination to re-integrate into society- completely agree with this. Don't get me started on vaccine passports, absolutely hideous, discriminatory idea.

Oh I agree that it was a good idea to get one dose into as many people in the top groups as possible. I just don’t think we need to be putting the same emphasis on vaccinating the low risk groups now.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

And *@bumbleymummy* just to add further on no one should be forced to accept the vaccination to re-integrate into society- completely agree with this. Don't get me started on vaccine passports, absolutely hideous, discriminatory idea.

Completely agree with you on that point!

@PlanDeRaccordement - the article quite clearly states that choice is dictated by supply - in other words there is no choice at the moment, because there is a shortage of vaccines. If you want to take the risk of going unvaccinated until there is a choice, that is entirely up to you. And where am I being autocratic?! I’m being no more autocratic than you are - you seem to think it’s wrong to offer younger people any vaccine if the only one available at the moment is AZ. I think younger people should have the choice of being vaccinated now, not having to wait for an indeterminate time in the hope something else will be offered to them. At no point have I said anyone should be forced to have a vaccination, just that you’re being deliberately dense if you think there is a choice right now when there is not enough available supply in the first place.

@walkaround

Yes the article claims that the vaccine offered is dictated by national supply but I think that is a politically convenient excuse and not reflective of reality, which is that the U.K. government are taking away choice at the individual level for their own reasons.

No, I haven’t said once the AZ vaccine should not be offered at all. Although the Uk isn’t in a Covid crisis and I think if I were PM, I would suspend it pending further investigation. All I’ve said is that people should be able to choose which vaccine they get based on their own individual risk profiles and cost/benefit analysis without suffering coercion or other societal pressure to take whatever they’re blindly offered.

The thing is though @bumbleymummy, what exactly is low risk? I've felt low risk all along from coronavirus but I feel my chances of dying or becoming seriously unwell from coronavirus are much higher than the AZ vaccine. That's how I feel with regards to the vaccines.

When it comes to the prioritisation, the most vulnerable now have a really good level of protection from one dose. How many 'low risk' people would die of coronavirus, particularly as society begins to reopen (which it absolutely has to, for everyone's mental, the economy- particularly the jobs of the low risk people)? It may be a small number of deaths but for one I think it would be a lot more than the deaths caused by any vaccine and in addition, it's the impact of these deaths that should be considered. People in their 20s, 30s and 40s who have children, where the impact would be hideous if something happened to their parents.

I think it's a good thing to get the first dose into as many as possible- the rollout of first doses has slowed to take into account the second doses required which is obviously right but I think the way the UK rolled the vaccine out has saved more lives than if we'd just stuck to getting two doses to the earliest recipients of the vaccine. It is what it is now anyway I guess. I'm just concerned as to what will happen to me getting my second dose of AZ if they change the recommendations to only offering AZ to over 40s but presume if you've had your first dose they'll give you the second? Hope so anyway.

@PlanDeRaccordement - that’s just your opinion, not fact. We have differing opinions on whether the UK government is the one in the wrong and making purely political decisions, or whether that accusation can be laid at the doors of many other countries. And suspending the vaccine is removing choice, of course, so you do want to remove choice.

[quote Walkaround]@PlanDeRaccordement - that’s just your opinion, not fact. We have differing opinions on whether the UK government is the one in the wrong and making purely political decisions, or whether that accusation can be laid at the doors of many other countries. And suspending the vaccine is removing choice, of course, so you do want to remove choice.[/quote]
Well yes, it is my opinion. Based on the fact that many other countries with worse supply issues ARE allowing individual choice. You are free to have faith in U.K. leadership....

Yes suspending would temporarily remove choice to have the AZ vaccine. But it’s no different from any manufacturer issuing a safety recall and pulling products off the shelves after a few dozen deaths are linked to their product. Why should vaccines be immune to basic safety protocols?

@PlanDeRaccordement - a government choosing to pull supplies against WHO and other expert advice is not the same thing as a manufacturer doing it, though, is it? And frankly, it’s because I have little faith in the Government’s handling of the Covid crisis pre-vaccination that I think vaccination protection is a good idea. And France, where I believe you said you live, is not a good advert for the handling of the covid crisis at the moment.