Anybody been invited and declined the jab?

[Devlesko]

Beginning to think I did the right thing now.
Anybody else?

The blood clot risk with AZ is very likely higher than 4 in a million in younger people and I wish people would stop quoting that number. New data is published all the time and when you look at the numbers from Nordic countries, Germany and Austria it could plausibly be as high as 1 in 50,000 or 20 in a million. I’m not saying it is, but some of the data points to that figure. So can we please be less dismissive about the risk, for some people it is a real worry.

Statins reduce blood clots and a lot of older people take these tablets , Is this why blood clots are more common in younger people?

What does “focussed protection” look like? Does that mean vulnerable people having to shield? Could you clarify because I’m not sure.

I go by these figures for risk. Obviously there's the risk of severe or long covid in addition to the risk of dying

Well, they are now outdated. But go ahead...

It was posted 3 days ago and yes I did go ahead and am much safer as a result.

@RoseMalone

I go by these figures for risk. Obviously there's the risk of severe or long covid in addition to the risk of dying

Shame there’s only death from Covid on this I agree, but thanks it’s useful

@MaxHanno.

How is the fact that the long term effects are unknown false? That is quite literally an indisputable fact unless you’re a time traveller.

It’s unlikely there’ll be catastrophic long term effects but you can’t claim we know there won’t be any, how can you?

[quote Terracotta9]@TheReluctantPhoenix

I never said London had herd immunity. I said most people I know have already had a covid infection. I mentioned London for context, because it had a massive outbreak in early 2020, and this is when I and most people I know were infected.

However, over time, with new strains, you will probably want to keep your immunity up to date, unless you actually want to play Russian roulette with COVID..

Honestly? I will take my chances with new covid strains. This is based on my personal experience of covid weighed against the unknown quantity of how a new vaccine with no long term safety data will affect me, personally.

I understand many people will disagree with my personal assessment of the risks/benefits for my body, and that’s fine. I respect the right of other people to assess their own risks and make their own healthcare decisions based on what they think is right for their body.

I absolutely expect the same in return, without being called a “refusenik” or “selfish” or “stupid”.[/quote]
But you're happy to use NHS resources if you get Covid and you get seriously ill?

@MumsnetHQ this needs deleting. Everything she said is false, fake news and antivax

Everything I said is true.

I have had two texts from my doctors surgery and one from the NHS inviting me to book a vaccination but I am not doing it for now. My personal risk from Covid is very low - I am fit and healthy, and only 51 years old. No underlying medical conditions. Not overweight. I dont have children in school, I don't do any 'caring' duties, I work in my own office in a small business and rarely have contact with other people for more than a few minutes at a time and that contact is usually distanced. I don't holiday abroad, don't use public transport, don't socialise in crowded places and rarely visit theatre/cinema/concerts etc. I know 4 people who have had the virus, only one was ill with it however I know 8 people who have had serious reactions to the vaccine (two of which had mild covid)

As far as my 'duty' to the rest of the population goes, my life is so solitary that I cannot see how, apart from adding to the statistics and making people feel better that way, my having this or any vaccination will make a blind bit of difference to anyone.

@Vargas But you're happy to use NHS resources if you get Covid and you get seriously ill?

I’ve already had covid twice and didn’t even get properly ill the second time. All evidence suggests that I’m not at risk of serious illness from covid, so your question is irrelevant.

Here’s a question for you though, do you think people that have health problems due to diet, smoking, alcohol, sedentary lifestyle etc should have access to NHS resources?

[quote Terracotta9]**@Vargas* But you're happy to use NHS resources if you get Covid and you get seriously ill?*

I’ve already had covid twice and didn’t even get properly ill the second time. All evidence suggests that I’m not at risk of serious illness from covid, so your question is irrelevant.

Here’s a question for you though, do you think people that have health problems due to diet, smoking, alcohol, sedentary lifestyle etc should have access to NHS resources?[/quote]
Firstly, it was just a question, and I think anyone who is ill, for whatever reason, should be treated by the NHS. But I do feel fairly judgemental about people refusing the jab, getting ill, and taking up NHS resources for something completely preventable. Your examples are not nearly as clear cut, someone who has never smoked can get lung cancer, someone who is normal weight can have heart disease etc... they are not directly correlated. Whereas choosing not to have the Covid vaccine and getting Covid badly enough to be hospitalised are directly related.

@Vargas But I do feel fairly judgemental about people refusing the jab, getting ill, and taking up NHS resources for something completely preventable.

What evidence do you have that there are significant numbers of people taking up NHS resources from Covid due to refusing the vaccine?

Well as a youngish, slim and fit person, I would get my chance of needing NHS resource due to covid is tiny compared to the obese people my age, who face greater illness and death from all causes

But it would be obscene to deny obese people medical treatment and it is equally disgusting to argue the vaccine hesitant should be withheld treatment

MN has gone to odd places and now some dark ones.

In the meantime, I notice that three weeks late we are doing something about Indian variants. Yet again this is madness to me. I still can’t have my friend in my house but I can come in from Delhi.

And I’m being told I’m the stupid one?

@MartianMellows

How much immunity will you have if you’ve had covid? Are there any studies?

It would seem reasonable to elect to take a test to see if we actually needed the vaccine. Is one of these in the making?

Why is the vaccine an issue if you have an autoimmune disease?

You may be interested in this clip from Prof Shane Crotty (virologist, institute of La Jolla Institute for Immunology, California), re immunity if you've had Covid already:

Basically the answer is 'it's complicated'.

People with autoimmunity are worried how their already overactive immune systems may react to the challenge of the vaccine, or the adjuvants therein. Yes, they will also worry about the effect of Covid, too! There's no easy answer.

No one I know in real life has actually refused the vaccine. My entire family above 45 is vaccinated across 3 continents, with AZ, Moderna and Pfizer. I used to be worried by these type of threads, but seeing vaccine uptake in the UK I think it's only on MN that people decline. I think enough people have taken it to develop herd immunity, perhaps?

[quote TulipsInAJug]@MumsnetHQ this needs deleting. Everything she said is false, fake news and antivax

Everything I said is true.[/quote]
No, it really isn't

This has exposed a huge problem in science communications- if someone reads something without a decent understanding of the science behind it they will misinterpret it. They they repeat things which are misinformation as you have done.

The distinction is that they have had to be classified in the gene therapy category due to legislation not having caught up, but they are certainly not gene therapy or capable of altering your DNA. As I said previously, it is not biologically possible for mRNA to get anywhere near your nucleus or DNA. If you had read the full document, it makes this very clear.

From the document linked:
www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1682852/000168285220000017/mrna-20200630.htm

There have been few approvals of gene therapy products in the United States or foreign jurisdictions, and there have been well-reported significant adverse events associated with their testing and use. Gene therapy products have the effect of introducing new DNA and potentially irreversibly changing the DNA in a cell. In contrast, mRNA is highly unlikely to localize to the nucleus, integrate into the DNA, or otherwise make any permanent changes to cell DNA. Consequently, we expect that our investigational medicines will have a different potential side effect profile from gene therapies.

‘Highly unlikely’?!

Can I maybe wait another year please so I can greater certainty than that?

If they've microchipped me, which would seem pointless as I take my phone everywhere anyway. But if they have they'd be so bored, dog walk, school run, dog, walk, supermarket, allotment, school run, dog walk, baby music class, school run.

Honestly it's terribly sad when anyone dies of anything Covid or not. The hysteria of Covid has turned into jab hysteria. I've had AZ, I don't worry because there is a risk with anything.

@Roonerspismed

‘Highly unlikely’?!

Can I maybe wait another year please so I can greater certainty than that?

No one is forcing you to be vaccinated, it's your choice, but hopefully it'll be an informed one.

In the same way the infertility rumour was spread by stating they did not know the effects on fertility (because it would be impossible to at that point in time), and is impossible to say with an 100% probability the vaccine won't make your skin turn green or that it is impossible for mRNA to enter the nucleus. It is biologically implausible and hasn't been observed before in animal or human studies, but that doesn't mean in a legal document you can declare certainty.

I'm not going to try and persuade you of the risks v benefits as it'll go nowhere, but I am keen to make sure people aren't being put off the vaccine by misinformation. Making an informed choice is really important.

Here are some more links for people explaining why the mRNA vaccines are not gene therapy:

www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/91604
www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-vaccine-code-idUSKBN2AI2ZC

Something doesn’t need to be capable of altering DNA to be classed as gene therapy.

According to the FDA:

Human gene therapy seeks to modify or manipulate the expression of a gene or to alter the biological properties of living cells for therapeutic use

That’s exactly what the mRNA vaccines are doing - they “alter the biological properties of living cells for therapeutic use”, by getting them to make the spike proteins.

@Checkingout811 of course I would expect NHS help because I pay for it with my NI contributions.

You do realise the NHS isn't ACTUALLY a free service, right?

Like with the TB jab they test to se if you need it, the same should apply to this. If they can manage the TB test in schools country wide before vaccination, there's no reason to believe they couldn't do much the same with the covid jab in vaccination centres etc.

I can't find the link but figures show you have roughly the same amount of immunity from having had covid as you do from having the jab.