Who thinks Australia and NZ have got it right ?

[marilenagrace]

What do you think ? Do you think that keeping everyone out of the country is the right approach long term to deal with covid ? Do you wish we did that here in the UK ?

The Irish border? Earlier on last year several EU countries temporarily closed their internal borders. A virus doesn't care about politics and the populations realised that.

Either Ireland works with us to do a joint border restriction, or there would have to be a temporary covid border between NI and ROI (tests, trace, quarantine where necessary), or NI sets up a separate system temporarily to the island part of the UK.

ROI and NI residents don't want to die painfully from covid, suffer long term illness from long covid, or have ruined businesses anymore than anyone else.

Covid is a wake up call that nature cares little for politics.

All the many countries (it's not just Australia and New Zealand) who restricted their borders still receive food and medical imports. Genuinely essential travel too. It's managed through real quarantine and proper testing, tracking, and isolating.

Do people really prefer our way? Repeated long lockdowns (with the mental and physical health impacts), over 150,000 dead, more than 1 million long term ill, and so many ruined busineses.

I don’t think anyone has said that - it’s a total straw man. I agree that we should have had better border controls, and been better at an awful lot of other stuff too.

But it’s factual that an Australian-style hard border isn’t practicable for a country like the UK that is so heavily dependent on RORO freight for its imports. Even without the question of the Irish border.

Over half of cargo vessels arriving at our ports are RORO vessels. Can you explain how you’d apply the rules for eg maritime workers at the Australian border to a Hungarian lorry driver who has to get from Grimsby to Ludlow, drop off the goods at a warehouse and get back again?

@Flyornofly

Teaslight has already showed their hand as someone who wants international travel to shut down due to climate change. I wouldnt engage with them - they just parrot back the “wouldn’t you rather that than 150k dead?” They never engage with the actual question being asked.

No I don't want it shut down. I want temporary border restrictions and real quarantine during Covid. Quarantine means travel so clearly that's not a shut down.

Longer term. It's up to everyone. Either we reduce international travel, or we stop claiming to care about climate change.

What we don't need is disruptive protests calling for "climate action" then screaming tantrums when someone suggests one of the solutions. If people want to tackle climate change, they'll need to accept reduced travel. If they don't care, then travel away.

Note reduced travel is not the same as no travel. An example is France's plan to plan domestic short haul.

It's others who aren't engaging btw fly
Would you rather the 150,000 dead, 1 million long covid sufferers (includes lots of under 50s), and many ruined businesses?

It's a valid question. It's the only alternative to temporarily restricted borders and real quarantine. We can't magic covid away.

@Tealightsandd

The Irish border? Earlier on last year several EU countries temporarily closed their internal borders. A virus doesn't care about politics and the populations realised that.

Either Ireland works with us to do a joint border restriction, or there would have to be a temporary covid border between NI and ROI (tests, trace, quarantine where necessary), or NI sets up a separate system temporarily to the island part of the UK.

ROI and NI residents don't want to die painfully from covid, suffer long term illness from long covid, or have ruined businesses anymore than anyone else.

Covid is a wake up call that nature cares little for politics.

Anybody who can write this rubbish clearly hasn't got a clue.

The NI/ROI border is a tad bit different from, say, the border between Germany and Austria. It's a massively sensitive border which must remain open under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, a treaty which has the status of international law.

Not to mention that there are about 200 roads crossing that border. Many people live in one jurisdiction and work or send their kids to school in the other. There is a motorway with one side in the republic and the other in the north. You only know you've crossed a border when your phone signal changes.

Anybody who isn't prepared to take these realities into account, preferring nonsense like 'the virus doesn't care aobut politics', is working on the basis of an agenda, not reality.

So what's your solution @IcedPurple?
Repeated long lockdowns with the mental and physical health consequences, potentially another 50,000 dead (on top of the 150,000 already lost), 1 million and counting long covid sufferers, ruined businesses, and up to 5 year NHS delays?

@Tealightsandd

So what's your solution *@IcedPurple*? Repeated long lockdowns with the mental and physical health consequences, potentially another 50,000 dead (on top of the 150,000 already lost), 1 million and counting long covid sufferers, ruined businesses, and up to 5 year NHS delays?

"Repeated long lockdowns" are a figment of your imagination. The complexities of the Irish border are very real, however much you may try, to use your expression, to 'magic them away'.

Tell me how, in practical, real world terms, the Irish border can be shut down, given the realities as outlined above.

I can't be certain of course but I'm reasonably confident the majority of the UK would prefer the border restrictions option. When the only alternative is what we're doing.

The lockdowns of the past year are a figment of my imagination?

Australia closed it's doors on it's citizens. Originally, told us to stay where we were if we were safe and not to travel. Then they locked us out. People have lost jobs, visas, and with restricted numbers allowed in and limited flights, the cost is prohibitive to get home. I fully support quarantine but find it incomprehensible that they don't have any regard for their fellow Australians. If you are very wealthy, a sportsperson or a celebrity then no problem. How about a 'fair go for all their own people'. They don't care.

@Tealightsandd

The lockdowns of the past year are a figment of my imagination?

The lockdowns of the past year are history. They can't be changed. So asking what I'd prefer' can only refer to the future because none of us can change the past.

I'm still waiting for your solutions as to how the Irish border and its 200 or so crossings can be closed, and how you would deal with the near certain political fallout.

I don’t think most people in the U.K. would prefer border restrictions from now. I think they would very much like to be vaccinated pronto and then move on with their lives.

There is no practical way of shutting the NI/Irish border that doesn’t lead to violence and / or the tearing up for the GFA. Teaslight knows it, which is why they keep parroting the “150k dead and repeated long lockdowns” nonsense. Btw Australia (victoria) DID have a long lockdown - 5 months long. So it’s not like they shut the border and everything was hunky dory.

I’m Australian. Our lives are almost 100% precovid normal. I don’t know anyone who has had COVID. Any illness we stay home and get tested but other than that it’s every day life. Kids are at school, no masks, pubs, clubs, shows all running.
We can’t travel overseas but we are given $100 per adult to spend in restaurants and tourist attractions like the zoos, whale watching etc from the government to boost the economy.
My daughter lost her job in foreign currency exchange but has gained employment quickly. My son has just started a government sponsored trade in engineering. Life is good!
We are very lucky that we can close our borders and manage quarantine effectively. We do have people arriving from overseas every day. I think half of Hollywood is here!
I work with a lot of teachers from Ireland and they have had their visas extended and they are all happy to stay. They prefer the safety here.
The population here is very multicultural! Every person I have spoken to are happier to be here and not in their home country. We have a very large population from India and Pakistan in my area and they have all experienced deaths within their family back home from COVID.
Long term we benefit from being able to let the rest of the world try the vaccines first and make informed decisions as to what protocols are safe for our people.
We had a lockdown in Sydney for around 6 weeks last year. Since then restrictions have eased at a sensible rate. We have had no cases until this week and the family that has tested positive caught the virus during quarantine and did not have the opportunity to go out into the community.
We can now travel freely to New Zealand and hopefully other safe countries at a slow and measured pace.
No one expects to travel to Europe or the USA for a long time. For most people that will have little impact on life. A long haul trip is often a once in a lifetime event for most Aussies. Expats will struggle and that is awful but they are lucky to be in a safe country where life is good. It is only a recent idea in Australia that travel is something for the average person. My own father emigrated 50 years ago and has been back to the UK two times. That was the way of the previous generation. Most people are just accepting that is how it is again!

You know better than the scientists fly?
They've been telling us there's a high likelihood of another wave in the autumn. Boris hasn't denied this either.

There's the Indian potential variant of concern, and and the South African strain. Who knows what else will crop up.

Both (particularly the Indian strain) are potentially immune to vaccines especially in the only partially vaccinated.

If the experts are right, we're facing many more deaths, loads more long term ill, and even more businesses on their knees. Oh - and NHS yet again overwhelmed.

I'm fairly confident most would prefer temporary restricted borders to going through all that and yet another long lockdown.

wawawawawa explains it perfectly.

I'm fairly confident most would prefer temporary restricted borders to going through all that and yet another long lockdown.

You haven’t actually explained how that would work though, given the UKs unique situation with the Irish border and the reliance on truck based food imports.

So just pie in the sky from you really

@user1469880812

Australia closed it's doors on it's citizens. Originally, told us to stay where we were if we were safe and not to travel. Then they locked us out. People have lost jobs, visas, and with restricted numbers allowed in and limited flights, the cost is prohibitive to get home. I fully support quarantine but find it incomprehensible that they don't have any regard for their fellow Australians. If you are very wealthy, a sportsperson or a celebrity then no problem. How about a 'fair go for all their own people'. They don't care.

I was about to point this out until I saw this post. This is the under-reported downside of Australia's closed borders. It's estimated that there are still 10's of thousands of Aussie citizens stranded around the world because of user1469880812's description of how they've been treated. I'm surprised this isn't a Human Rights issue. But.....The Australian government allowed the Australian tennis Open to go ahead, with the arrival of elite players from around the globe. So, yes, there really is, as user1469880812 has said, dual standards being applied here. Disgraceful.

I'm fairly confident most would prefer temporary restricted borders to going through all that and yet another long lockdown.

Most people preferred Brexit and the Tories too. Presumably, going by that logic, you support both.

And I'm still waiting to hear your solution to the complexities of the Irish border. You don't actually have a solution, do you?

@wawawawawa

I’m Australian. Our lives are almost 100% precovid normal. I don’t know anyone who has had COVID. Any illness we stay home and get tested but other than that it’s every day life. Kids are at school, no masks, pubs, clubs, shows all running. We can’t travel overseas but we are given $100 per adult to spend in restaurants and tourist attractions like the zoos, whale watching etc from the government to boost the economy. My daughter lost her job in foreign currency exchange but has gained employment quickly. My son has just started a government sponsored trade in engineering. Life is good! We are very lucky that we can close our borders and manage quarantine effectively. We do have people arriving from overseas every day. I think half of Hollywood is here! I work with a lot of teachers from Ireland and they have had their visas extended and they are all happy to stay. They prefer the safety here. The population here is very multicultural! Every person I have spoken to are happier to be here and not in their home country. We have a very large population from India and Pakistan in my area and they have all experienced deaths within their family back home from COVID. Long term we benefit from being able to let the rest of the world try the vaccines first and make informed decisions as to what protocols are safe for our people. We had a lockdown in Sydney for around 6 weeks last year. Since then restrictions have eased at a sensible rate. We have had no cases until this week and the family that has tested positive caught the virus during quarantine and did not have the opportunity to go out into the community. We can now travel freely to New Zealand and hopefully other safe countries at a slow and measured pace. No one expects to travel to Europe or the USA for a long time. For most people that will have little impact on life. A long haul trip is often a once in a lifetime event for most Aussies. Expats will struggle and that is awful but they are lucky to be in a safe country where life is good. It is only a recent idea in Australia that travel is something for the average person. My own father emigrated 50 years ago and has been back to the UK two times. That was the way of the previous generation. Most people are just accepting that is how it is again!

There are thousands of angry, distressed Australian citizens stranded around the globe because they can't get home - the number of flights in is severely capped, and they are apparently prohibitively expensive. You say "Expats will struggle and that is awful but they are lucky to be in a safe country where life is good". Really???

We are very lucky that we can close our borders and manage quarantine effectively. We do have people arriving from overseas every day. I think half of Hollywood is here!

I highly doubt that. Almost all Australian celebrities leave the country as soon as they become internationally famous, so I doubt 'half of Hollywood' is rushing off to shut themselves into Australia in the middle of a pandemic.

I work with a lot of teachers from Ireland and they have had their visas extended and they are all happy to stay. They prefer the safety here.

Your frequent use of the words 'safe' and 'safety' is interesting. Do you think the average person in Europe is in danger?

@IcedPurple

I'm fairly confident most would prefer temporary restricted borders to going through all that and yet another long lockdown.

Most people preferred Brexit and the Tories too. Presumably, going by that logic, you support both.

And I'm still waiting to hear your solution to the complexities of the Irish border. You don't actually have a solution, do you?

What's your solution to another wave (particularly if it's a more vaccine resistant strain)?

What's your solution to another wave (particularly if it's a more vaccine resistant strain)?

Trying to evade a question by asking another one is a really terrible tactic which even a child can see through.

I gave a number of reasons why closing the Irish border is impossible in practical terms and asked what your solution is. You don't have a solution. That is obvious.

Who is the 'average' person Iced?
Do you mean healthy under 30s? Perhaps Australia values all lives including older - and disabled.

Or perhaps rather than or as well as altruism, Australia doesn't want to fund the cost of their healthcare and welfare benefits system treating the many 1000s with long covid (more than 1 million so far in the UK).

@IcedPurple
I've answered your question. More than once. You just don't like the answer. It's you that's evading the questions. You don't like the option I would have chosen. So what would your choice be? There's no good option, unless you have discovered the secret of how to magic Covid away.

Lol no you haven’t