Who thinks Australia and NZ have got it right ?

[marilenagrace]

What do you think ? Do you think that keeping everyone out of the country is the right approach long term to deal with covid ? Do you wish we did that here in the UK ?

This information from Japan is really interesting.

@Kokeshi123 did you have mass school closures for any length of time? Could you meet inside with family?

Sorry for all the questions but it would be helpful at some point to understand the Japan situation and whether some kind of immunity from SARS or other recent coronaviruses has had an impact on it not taking off hugely despite no elimination policy. I wonder what the economy is like there now?

Interesting policy from Australia. There was another thread on here about how we may have been too slow to put India on the red list and the general feeling was that it was inhumane to stop family returning and that they should be given the time to do so.

Sure, I'd totally agree that the border control policies here are stricter than in the UK (though that's probably not difficult, LOL

It would be quite an achievement!

We have never had any kind of mandatory mask policy anywhere. People do nearly always wear masks in indoor public places, and also wear them quite a lot in outdoor public places, but it's not legally required anywhere.

I think that's the key. It doesn't have to be mandatory because people are generally doing it voluntarily?

The new Australian rule re India. It's so so awful for people caught stuck in India...but the alternative is Australia risks having gone through all of the border restrictions of the last year for nothing.

@Delatron

Interesting policy from Australia. There was another thread on here about how we may have been too slow to put India on the red list and the general feeling was that it was inhumane to stop family returning and that they should be given the time to do so.

The other side to that argument is it's inhumane to risk even more lives lost and health ruined, by allowing the spread of a new strain that vaccines are potentially lead effective against. Scientists have already cautioned vaccines might be less effective in the elderly and vulnerable. Hence the need for boosters (possibly with vaccines tweaked to work against the new strains). There are millions of vulnerable in the UK. There's also long Covid. Unlike Brits, Australians are being protected from the risk of long term illness including heart and lung damage.

*less not lead

I actually think we should have been much stricter with returns from India. I’m just highlighting the general consensus on the other thread.

But for Australia it will still come back to the question. Can you pursue a zero Covid strategy long term with a virus that is about to be endemic across the world? It’s it going away and it won’t be eradicated. Plus they haven’t actually set out their strategy...

@Delatron

But for Australia it will still come back to the question. Can you pursue a zero Covid strategy long term with a virus that is about to be endemic across the world? It’s it going away and it won’t be eradicated. Plus they haven’t actually set out their strategy...

The strategy is getting the majority of the population fully vaccinated (including, if need be, a slight wait for the vaccines to arrive).

But not everyone can or will get vaccinated. Kids for example. There’s a lot of kids. Coupled with zero immunity. What happens when a few cases get in?

@Delatron exactly. Eventually they will have a ‘wave’, it will probably be less serious/ fatal given most of them will be vaccinated, but yes, they will probably be dealing with this for the first time while other countries are emerging out of the other side. That will be tough politically and emotionally, I’m sure.

It's about the majority. Once the majority are vaccinated (not just in Australia), the virus is no longer a major threat. It will have only limited opportunity to spread and mutate.

Also, a small number of cases are more easily dealt with.

Anyway, drug treatments are being worked on - so far with some very promising results.

I saw earlier in this thread (or was it a different one?) 40% of Australians don't have a passport. That's a massive proportion of the population - and it suggests that many (most?) are content to wait until it's safer to fully open up to the world. Very tough for those who aren't of course, but then there's no better alternative approach.

Australia and New Zealand have got the right approach with regard to keeping aliens out. Except that there are thousands of citizens who cant get back into the country because the cost of the few flights in has risen beyond their means. Plus the cost of isolation packages in hotels when they get there. In the meantime it is a real kick in the teeth to see so called "elite" sports people and Z list celebrities and those who can afford the isolation packages allowed in. Something wrong there somewhere. What is so bloody special about these so called "elite" sports people?

I have lots of F&F in NZ and a close friend is just back from a few month there.

While life in NZ is fairly "pre-covid" normal, bizarely there is a high level of covid fear amoung the general population and it still dominates their lives. Its quite strange - family members in NZ so worried and there is no covid there. Mind you NZ media/magazines have always been particulary dreadful & are great at whipping up fear.

@oneglassandpuzzled

They need to hurry up their vaccination programme as their tourism industry will suffer a lack of international visitors. They’re a bit stuck at the moment. My very close family are frustrated that they can’t see me or my elderly mother.

Oh how inconvenient of Nz It was a pleasure to work over summer then holiday locally without a hoard of international visitors and a more friendly atmosphere also less mess, waste, horrid cruise ships human poo in our backyards from freedom campers- always Uk and Australians. Carry on with your zoom. We can wait. Hurry it up for our vulnerable not our tourism love

It's a double edged sword. On the one hand, Kiwi or Aussie citizenship is theoretically valuable for a global emergency, on the other hand, you likely wouldn't be able to get back or may even be threatened with jail for trying to do so.

It may cause bolt-holers to rethink.

Yes, Kiwis are afraid of covid in a way UK, Europe etc. haven't been since early 2020. It will be so politically difficult to convince them to accept even a little 1st wave once vaccinated and I'm not sure what the exit plan is.

I'd rather have a country a bit afraid of Covid (a deadly disease, that can also causes long term heart and lung damage) than a country that prefers to "let the bodies pile up".

They won't need 'a little first wave' (how many piled up bodies counts as little?). In the longer term, the majority (not just in NZ) will be vaccinated. Drug treatments will also be available.

true - but it is quite bizarre as their fear isn't based on daily reality.

It is based on daily reality. People in NZ have eyes and ears. They see and hear what's happening in countries who didn't take measures or enough measures to contain it.

@Tealightsandd

It is based on daily reality. People in NZ have eyes and ears. They see and hear what's happening in countries who didn't take measures or enough measures to contain it.

I would compare it to terror. There is a perception down under that terror is a daily horror here in the northern hemisphere when the truth is that one is vanishingly unlikely to fall victim. However, there is such prominent reporting of it there, that it looms larger there than it does here. I suspect as the pandemic wanes here, that dynamic will be driving continued perception of an ongoing UK/EU/US disaster, for those watching the news from down under.

@carrieantoinette

Jersey
Guernsey
Isle of Man

There are 3 within a couple of hundred miles of london

@Tealightsandd

Sure, I'd totally agree that the border control policies here are stricter than in the UK (though that's probably not difficult, LOL

It would be quite an achievement!

We have never had any kind of mandatory mask policy anywhere. People do nearly always wear masks in indoor public places, and also wear them quite a lot in outdoor public places, but it's not legally required anywhere.

I think that's the key. It doesn't have to be mandatory because people are generally doing it voluntarily?

The new Australian rule re India. It's so so awful for people caught stuck in India...but the alternative is Australia risks having gone through all of the border restrictions of the last year for nothing.

A country with any compassion at all would come up with a policy that allowed people to return and quarantine safely.

Nearly every other country in the world has managed it, why can't they.

If they cares about people they could even make arrangements to quarantine them in India and not allow them to return home until proven not to be infected.

I am astounded so many people thi k the total lack of compassion is acceptable.

I sure as he'll wouldn't want to live in a country that did that to its residents and even the most hard-core mumsnetter would be up in arms if they had family out there and the UK did the same.

It's an absolutely awful decision to have to make. I don't know if it's the answer. Is it supported by the majority in Australia?

I would have hoped quarantine was a possible option, but perhaps too much logistically? Sheer numbers? I assume the Australian authorities have said why not quarantine instead?

I do know, however, that "let the bodies pile up" is very much lacking in compassion.

I havent felt terrified since the beginning and it actually arrived - seeing it in China and Italy and the wave approaching back in FEb/March 2020 was the worst and most terrifying time of all. Once it arrived it kind of went and you just dealt with it at each stage.

It is based on daily reality. People in NZ have eyes and ears. They see and hear what's happening in countries who didn't take measures or enough measures to contain it.

and that is exactly what I am saying they are seeing the absolute worst parts of it and that fear of what happens if it arrives to have lived with it for over a year must be tough.

Because actually now here in our daily reality is actually ok, indeed I am quite full of hope.

I don't know of any country that is moving away from the gold standard of covid control in the middle of the ongoing pandemic, and here are some graphs from The Lancet on why not.

I just saw this today. I have to tell you it really surprised me to see the methodology behind these graphs, because it claims to be comparing 'elimination countries' with 'mitigation countries', but the 'elimination countries' include Iceland and Japan.

As an Icelandic citizen and resident I can tell you that Iceland has definitely NOT pursued an 'elimination strategy' at any point. Someone else on this thread who is resident in Japan says that neither have they.

They define elimination as "maximum action to control SARS-CoV-2 and stop community transmission as quickly as possible" and mitigation as 'action increased in a stepwise, targeted way to reduce cases so as not to overwhelm health-care systems'. Iceland is definitely a mitigation country by these standards.

Does that information make you question the graphs at all? Because to me it looks suspiciously a bit like they worked backwards from a country's outcomes rather than fairly judging which countries genuinely pursued an elimination strategy.

@PuffinShop

I don't know of any country that is moving away from the gold standard of covid control in the middle of the ongoing pandemic, and here are some graphs from The Lancet on why not.

I just saw this today. I have to tell you it really surprised me to see the methodology behind these graphs, because it claims to be comparing 'elimination countries' with 'mitigation countries', but the 'elimination countries' include Iceland and Japan.

As an Icelandic citizen and resident I can tell you that Iceland has definitely NOT pursued an 'elimination strategy' at any point. Someone else on this thread who is resident in Japan says that neither have they.

They define elimination as "maximum action to control SARS-CoV-2 and stop community transmission as quickly as possible" and mitigation as 'action increased in a stepwise, targeted way to reduce cases so as not to overwhelm health-care systems'. Iceland is definitely a mitigation country by these standards.

Does that information make you question the graphs at all? Because to me it looks suspiciously a bit like they worked backwards from a country's outcomes rather than fairly judging which countries genuinely pursued an elimination strategy.

Iceland may not have stated an aim of elimination but they followed very similar molecular epidemiology and quarantine & tracing contacts maximum suppression plan to NZ.

I don't know much about Japan's strategy. Or why it was included on one side of the line as opposed to the other.

But if you moved it to the other team max suppression/elimination would still be a better strategy measured by these criteria.