Who thinks Australia and NZ have got it right ?

[marilenagrace]

What do you think ? Do you think that keeping everyone out of the country is the right approach long term to deal with covid ? Do you wish we did that here in the UK ?

I suspect a lot of people who are concerned about border closures are more concerned with the lack of clarity on how long it will be. If they were given a clear end date, it would be easier to bear. So it may sound awful that my mother is hopping and squirming living in a "zero" Covid country (it's not zero, they have 186 active cases according to The Australian Government Department for Health) but really she just wants to know how long it will be for, and of course she realises nobody can put a definite end date on it, so she focuses on things that might see an end to it, like the vaccine rollout (pretty slow, though hopefully picking up pace) and soundbites from ScoMo and Greg Hunt etc which are not particularly promising. I think there's a commonwealth cabinet meeting tomorrow, perhaps that should shed some light.

The 50 something aged politicians like to talk about being cautious and patient. Fair enough for the vast majority, but my mother is 76. When they talk about 2024 she's realising she'll be nearly 80. And that the UK is a long way to fly when you are nearly 80. My son, who she last saw when he had just turned 12 will be 17. My daughter, who was 10, will be 15. That's a lot of "development" for a grandmother to miss.

So then the guilt comes for me. The guilt that I settled over here, did try to go back in 2007 when the kids were born but the global economic crisis happened and it was the wrong time and somehow it never happened. I got the guilt trip then and I'm feeling it again now.

Is it better of her dying of Covid as it ravages through a cold Melbourne winter? Of course! I"m not daft, really I"m not but it's still a shitstorm in my brain.

At the moment the best I can hope for is that neither of them get seriously ill, and if they do, it's not so serious that they can't hold on for 24 hours travel plus 14 days for me to get to them. So no heart attacks or strokes please, parents. Not yet. Just hang in there a bit until there is no hotel quarantine.

But will they get rid of that? Even after vaccination and borders opening? Probably not, it is thought. It will possibly become a new normal of Australia's strict biosecurity. So I won't really be able to visit because it's too much annual leave in one hit and I'm needed at home by my own family as well.

I'll have to save that for a potential funeral really won't I, unless things change, and hope that they can get here to see me at least once before it gets to that stage of their lives. We've got good genes, they might make it into their 90's so I might get to see them twice more. Maybe 3 times?

I shouldn't really mention funerals, but the thought of them, and how one can arrange one via zoom should the worst happen soon, strikes me out of the blue at 3 in the morning when I wake up with a jolt and wish that this was all a bad dream.

It's not hyperbole, it's my life at the moment, and it could be so much worse if my family were in India or Brazil and I"m well aware of the awful situations that people have found themselves in in the past year. I don't think there's been much worse to watch than people staring at their parent through the glass of nursing homes and their dementia affected parent staring back at them speechless and without comprehension.

But we all have things that sometimes make you gasp awake in the middle of the night and for me at the moment its that something happens and that I can't be there. I can't be the only one.

Tatty that brought a tear to my eye. No you’re not the only one

I feel like a part of me has been hammered into submission. It’s weird and sad.

I'd probably be happier too if my DH was stuck in Australia (and I wasn't)...

I've been trying to get one of my step-sisters to move close to our parents for years. She could do that tomorrow given she lives in the same country, at least. The guilt of the immigrated with elderly parent(s) can indeed be great.

Thanks guys. It felt good to let that out. You can't do it on social media as the wrong people might see it, and the trolls get off on it, so it's nice to vent in a relatively anonymous environment.

That’s so sad @TattyDevine

I do think out of all of this, not seeing family has been the hardest (and most overlooked) consequence. I’ve said so many times the grandparents will be missing all these important times in their grandkids life that they can’t get back.

I really hope that you get a date for travel soon. Understandable that not even knowing which year it will be is the hardest.

One article suggested that Australia may not have 'back to normal' travel until 2024.
A friend I know is Australian, living in England with her immediate family, whilst her parents and extended family are in Australia. It's already been 2 years since she's seen the, she and her family are upset that it could be much longer. Her grandparent is elderly and not overly well and she's worried she won't see her again.

One concern I'd have is that if cut off, how many people have naturally immunity? Iirr I read their vaccination programme is having delays, possibly by a few months. If this is the case on top of lower natural immunity from having had covid - what happens when they do open up? More people will be vulnerable to catching it potentially. I guess they have to remain closed off longer or risk getting higher covid numbers if they open up without the immunity level being high enough.

Tatty thank you for articulating so perfectly and eloquently how I and I suspect so many of us feel. x

@TattyDevine your post brought a tear to my eye. My feelings are so similar. A 6 and 9 year old who are slowly forgetting my parents and siblings. We are all sick of video calls and my kids have never liked talking on the phone anyway. I feel like my DC won't have any relationship with my family now. I too wake up a night worrying. What if something happens and I can't get back. Ridiculously one of the things that reassures me is knowing I'll have 14 days in quarantine to finish up work projects and do a handover before taking leave!! This is all taking such a toll on my relationship with DH too. I'm feeling resentful and struggle to put up with his mum's lack of sensitivity - i.e. saying how much of the DC's life she's missed over the past year.

[quote Delatron]@BootsScootsAndToots
Wow so he’s completely fine and happy to not see you or family for years?

I understand that it’s great everything is open over there and hardly any deaths. But what’s the long term strategy?[/quote]
Of course he's not fine not seeing his family (I'm in Aus with him but I'm Australian) but he understands this is a pandemic, that caution is needed and said we should shut the borders way back in early March 2020 before the government did.

No-one who immigrates ever imagines they won't be able to get home when they need to. I lived in the UK for 10 years and used to tell myself it's only a 24 hour flight in an emergency.

If you take emotion out of the decision, then borders being shut, at this time, is the right decision for Australia.

Would I be happy if I were still living in the UK? Absolutely not! But that doesn't make the decision of now any less right.

The Australian government's vague announcements about border openings shouldn't be seized on as gospel.
I'm in Melbourne. Husband through his work met with a group of city travel agents last week and they're taking bookings from November 2022 for European cruises because that's when absolutely everything is expected to be back.
That's 18 months away. I would expect even our snail's pace rollout will be done by then and some travel will have occurred before . Home detention for the vaccinated is on the cards when they return.
Don't despair. We're not going to have our borders closed forever, that's nonsense.

That is just not how public health has EVER worked.

I’m in public health these days, post hands on medico, so do know how it works. I agree with you about how things work in general but you are completely deaf in regards to the sensitivities around our Indigenous population. You can’t treat them as just ‘another’ clinically vulnerable population. It’s a political nightmare.

@XiCi

My dh is 'stuck' in Aus and is happy with how things are How long will people be happy though? One year, 5 years? Will they be so happy when the start missing weddings, funerals? When they can't see parents who are in very ill health, family members that are dying? It amazes me how quickly people just give up their freedom and civil liberty, and not just in Australia, the UK government have used Covid to push through laws that would not have been acceptable in 'normal' times. Its frightening

We already are and have been missing those things. I have a colleague who missed his fathers funeral, and being there to support his family. I have missed 2x weddings and the arrival of both a niece and nephew. My own DS was born at the beginning of all this, is now one, and has not met any of our family. It has been hard and emotional and nothing can undo what has already happened. And yet I am glad that my DM (with multiple health conditions) is safe and awaiting her vaccination. She has been able to hug her (local) granddaughter. My DB and SIL, both drs, are not under even more pressure than usual, my friends could go ahead with scaled down weddings etc. I think most of us down here realise we would be giving up a whole lot more and be in a much more dire situation otherwise.

@HoppingPavlova sorry I meant the general vulnerable population. I agree you cannot leave indigenous populations exposed (although it does beg the question of what happens if, having mucked around with the messaging on vaccine safety, those populations refuse it). I meant the shielding population.

@TattyDevine thank you for your eloquence x

Oh and @HoppingPavlova I just reread my post and it was incredibly unclear so sorry!

I agree you cannot leave indigenous populations exposed (although it does beg the question of what happens if, having mucked around with the messaging on vaccine safety, those populations refuse it).

Well, to frame that, the rate of general vaccination per schedule (not Covid), is low in the Indigenous population. It’s not a cost issue as free, it’s not an availability issue as clinics are available. There are some logistical issues e.g. a clinic may travel to a certain area to provide coverage but during that time some families may be absent as they have gone away for a while but that’s not a blanket issue as such. The main barrier is a deep-seated fear and mistrust in anything Govnt/institution related. For instance fear of taking children for vax in case Dr may deem another issue which they believe will result in children being removed, older people not going due to deep-seated belief that nothing good will ever come from these interactions. There is so much inter generational trauma it affects everything on a day to day basis. So, even when a Covid vax is available to them it’s a very hard sell so to speak.

Well quite. But I guess my question is what you do about that? It’s politically unacceptable to allow indigenous populations to suffer, but I don’t think it’s politically acceptable to keep borders artificially closed because of them either. (That may be an ugly truth, but it’s a truth.)

In any event given the crisis in PNG hopefully remote communities at least in the north can be persuaded of the value to them.

Yes, sadly for those who are cut off from family. I really think they have.

They are in a position to watch and wait until the world has sorted itself out. Then they can buy the most suitable vaccine and walk way from the horrors the rest of the world has endured.

@BootsScootsAndToots sorry when you said your ‘DH was stuck in Australia’ and was happy. I thought you weren’t with him!

I guess it’s a different situation for everyone.
Some may be fine with it but as we’ve seen on here it’s heartbreaking for others not seeing family for years especially elderly parents. And not knowing when they can see them. So not everyone is happy with the situation

I'm in NZ and am resigned to not seeing my family for a at least another year. My father was ill recently and it was a worry that I wouldn't be able to go without being away at least a month and probably losing my job.

But we also have a responsibility to the rest of our community. Most kiwis can't afford long distance travel as it really is so expensive from here. So it doesn't seem fair to ask them to risk death or disability so some of us can.

I'm so grateful we closed our borders. Its been better for our economy. We'll vaccinate then reopen, and covid will come but it'll be manageable. We understand the virus more, treatments are better and we won't lose so many people.

No matter what anybody says it's inhumane to stop people from seeing their families for years.

I agree @Celebrityskin88
What a sacrifice to have to make. The fact that everything is open over there doesn’t make that ok. You can go to a pub/restaurant but you can’t see your parents? For years.

I get that it is for the greater good but still.

@Celebrityskin88 @Delatron what about the parents/grandparents who died from covid in the UK/Europe/US? Isn't it inhumane to risk the lives of the majority of Australians to allow in comparison a small number of citizens/PRs to go and visit their family overseas?

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative here, it's a honest question as I've seen reporting on the number of deaths of people of 60 overseas, and it horrifies me.

There is a compassionate process set up to allow people to exit Australia, and in addition 3 month plus trips are essentially always approved. There is opportunity for people to go to visit their family, however getting back can be challenging and hotel quarantine at your cost remains mandatory.

Only time will tell which border approach was best (highly subjective) from an approach which is lock down the country (AU, NZ, Singapore, Japan, etc) vs an open border with some restrictions (UK, some European countries, US, etc).

@Delatron, it's also not just the pub. Most importantly,

1. Our schooling for primary, secondary and university students has barely been impacted (excluding the Victorian lock down) with only a short schooling from home.
2. Our hospital system for non-COVID related illness and disease has not been significantly affected with us being able to seek the doctor, specialists and treatment.
3. Our economy is performing significantly better than expected. With government support funding ending, this is at risk, however our GDP per capita is outperforming the majority of the world, sitting behind China and Korea

I do agree @Neonlightning and it just comes down to individual experiences doesn’t it? In a selfish manner, if you’re in the U.K. and you are fortunate to have family nearby (I don’t) and you know nobody who has died then you’re probably happy that we will be opening up soon, lots vaccinated, can travel and haven’t missed out on seeing parents. Of course the huge death toll is awful here.

If you have family in Australia that you may not see for years now then that is a huge price to pay. As a former poster said I think that’s inhumane. To keep families apart. That’s the price for some over there or the consequence of closed borders and very tight restrictions for years.

No matter what anybody says it's inhumane to stop people from seeing their families for years.

And once again the dramatics! It's been just over ONE year, and unless you are part of the government response you have no idea how much longer it will be.