Who thinks Australia and NZ have got it right ?

[marilenagrace]

What do you think ? Do you think that keeping everyone out of the country is the right approach long term to deal with covid ? Do you wish we did that here in the UK ?

The fact that everything is open over there doesn’t make that ok. You can go to a pub/restaurant but you can’t see your parents? For years.

You seem to think the whole population of Australia and NZ has parents overseas!! Most of us can see our parents because they live here.

I have friends in the UK who have not seen their parents for the same amount of time, due to various factors such as living far away, being vulnerable and living in a care home and the family members being sensible and staying close to home. Many other people cannot see their parents because they died of covid - but apparently that is okay, as long as the borders are open.

Just listening to what people are saying on here. Some heartbreaking stories. Just being empathetic.

If you have family all in Australia fantastic for you. However lots have emigrated over there and it’s an issue for them.

Realistically from May 17th most people with family far away in England will finally be able to see them. It may be a few more years for Aus. That’s a significant length of time with elderly parents.

I actually know people who have moved down under and whose elderly parents have died (which often happens quite quickly, so being a 24 hour flight away doesn't mean you would get there in time) and they haven't gone home to see them beforehand, or for the funeral.

I get that it's tough - but if you want to move to the other side of the world you have to factor these things in, rather than go with the expectation that nothing is ever going to change. Moving to the other side of the world means sacrifices, and if you can't cope then don't move surely. It's not the governments fault you made the decisions you did.

As I've already said, while there are many moaning on MN, in the real world the majority just get on with things without whining.

@eaglejulesk I really don't like your post. You're not very compassionate are you ? It's perfectly reasonable to expect to be able to fly whenever you like - it's been that way for all of our lives. Why would we expect something different ?

The world has become more and more interconnects in recent years - why would we have thought that countries would actually make it illegal for us to leave ? Anyway. Your post is just horrible. Good luck, hope you never find yourself in a shit situation.

( ps: I don't even live in Australia or away from family but think it's outrageous what you've said ).

Yep @marilenagrace the lack of compassion really comes through in her posts.

@Delatron

Yep *@marilenagrace* the lack of compassion really comes through in her posts.

Yes, exactly. It's obviously going to be fine when both you and your parents moved to NZ, so you can still see each other, but there are many Kiwi families with parts of the family living in different countries and it's an extremely upsetting issue for all concerned.

I’m down here with a DH who’s ageing parents are on the other side of the world.

Yes, we worry something might happen to them. We’re hoping it doesn’t.

But - we’d still rather be in a country that’s taken the approach we did, so that - otherwise - life is, and has been, normal for many months now. Kids at school, etc.

DH’s Dad turns 80 at the end of the year. He’s probably not going to be able to go over and celebrate as planned. We haven’t ruled it out yet, though.

But again - pandemics come and go. Everyone is talking as if this pandemic is never going to end, and we’re still going to be living with it (and all that it entails - closed borders, etc), in another 3, 5, 10 years.

I highly, highly doubt that. Even the 1918 Spanish influenza came to an end.

People here are philosophical about it. Yes, even those of us with ageing family overseas, a long way away.

We’d rather the borders be closed while it’s seemingly ‘raging’ overseas.

Now. If only every other country could sort themselves out, maybe we could return to a bit of normality - and open our borders!

@SaturdayRocks

I’m down here with a DH who’s ageing parents are on the other side of the world.

Yes, we worry something might happen to them. We’re hoping it doesn’t.

But - we’d still rather be in a country that’s taken the approach we did, so that - otherwise - life is, and has been, normal for many months now. Kids at school, etc.

DH’s Dad turns 80 at the end of the year. He’s probably not going to be able to go over and celebrate as planned. We haven’t ruled it out yet, though.

But again - pandemics come and go. Everyone is talking as if this pandemic is never going to end, and we’re still going to be living with it (and all that it entails - closed borders, etc), in another 3, 5, 10 years.

I highly, highly doubt that. Even the 1918 Spanish influenza came to an end.

People here are philosophical about it. Yes, even those of us with ageing family overseas, a long way away.

We’d rather the borders be closed while it’s seemingly ‘raging’ overseas.

Now. If only every other country could sort themselves out, maybe we could return to a bit of normality - and open our borders!

Other countries, eg U.K., will be ready earlier but it’s more likely when you have vaccinated the population.

On compassion in general of course it’s much easier to make jibes if it doesn’t effect you. But it’s just typical unpleasantness.

I’m enjoying the idea that immigrants are the only group who should have seen the first mass global border closures since the war, and moreover should have foreseen how individual countries would react and be affected. 😂

I need to figure out a way to use these superpowers better.

The lack of empathy and compassion from some posters is entirely unsurprising to me. The pandemic has really brought out those who enjoy giving people who are struggling a kicking on Mumsnet.

And again - because apparently you have to keep repeating it on these threads, I have no beef with my home country’s overall strategy to date, apart from its deliberate erosion of citizens’ rights and making it much easier for the very rich. I do however think its lack of an agreed and published high level exit strategy leaves it vulnerable to following populism not science as it heads into a multi-election year, as well as enabling people to weave their own competing narratives.

@marilenagrace, it's no illegal to leave - if you want to move back to the UK, that's fine. In fact, if you go for a minimum of 3 months it's almost a 100% approval rate from the government to go.

There is also a compassionate policy in place in case of illnesses.

It can be challenging to get back to AUS and you are responsible for cost of hotel quarantine.

I'm an immigrant in Australia with ageing parents in the UK, and my aging in-laws in Ireland. My brother in law who is quite young is terminally ill, we may not see him again. And yet I still agree with the border policy here, and I am grateful to live somewhere that life is easy and normal. Yes it is difficult, but it is for the greater good. I very much hope that the pandemic will be under control in time for us to see our folks again because I love and miss them very much, but this is the price we have to pay for now. It is not barbaric in the slightest, it is the most sensible course of action.

It’s really interesting that those of us actually living down here - and personally impacted by it - are understanding and accepting of temporary (for we all know it is only temporary) closed borders.

It’s people looking in from the outside who are describing it as ‘barbaric’ and ‘inhumane’.

Why?

I don't think the whole topic need to be quite so divisive.
Everyone is coming at this with different experiences and view points all of which are valid.
I do think that the news being reported internationally (both ways) sensationalizes sound bites and quotes and it can be hard to interpret nuances of the overall situation and direction without actually being in it.
Talking to family and reading the news gives an insight but not a real feel. I think it's this that a lot of Aus posters are trying to convey.
I also think that as the UK have been dealing with such trying circumstances and in a lot of cases ( not all) then worrying about this might have been further down the list in terms of priorities. Particularly when dealing with the acute stages. Now that vaccinations are picking up and thing are starting to open up, their is more capacity to think about further impacts of the pandemic, rather than just the initial survive and adapt that was necessary earlier.
Many Australians are at a different point on a different journey. Many of us have worked through the initial shock and grief of being separated from loved ones, and while we miss them terribly we are at a point of acceptance (doesn't mean we like it).

The recent WA elections show how popular the closed borders approach has been, the incumbent Labour party won 53 out of 59 seats, the Liberal party, who had argued for opening them up, ended up with 2, all but wiped out, and there is a huge number of immigrants. I live in the same suburb as 3 other families from my school back home in Scotland, none of us would have it any other way though, despite missing our families.

ScoMo is an arse, and there's no doubt the roll out's been a screw up, but at the same time I don't know how high take up is likely to be at the moment, and until we have a way of ensuring protection of our vulnerable communities there's not really an alternative. I also feel that the vaccines could be directed better at other countries who really need it for now, where it could actually save lives.

Regarding closed borders, the national cabinet is having discussions about this right now in Australia. It isn't their intention to keep closed borders forever, how absurd.

The vaccine rollout was behind schedule, then the discovery of deadly side effects from the AZ vaccine were announced and so a new plan has been made. Over 50s are being offered AZ immediately and the rest of us will have to wait for the Pfizer vaccine to arrive.

Given that our government has put the lives and health of the Australian people first every step of the way there is a high level of trust that they are making the right decisions and as has always been the case this is a constantly evolving situation and restrictions and plans will have to change based on this.

In the meantime, everyone is living a normal life here and has been for almost the entire time bar the early lockdowns last year and the Melbourne one mid year.

Employment levels are higher now than pre Covid and tourism is managing even without international visitors. I'm having to book now for a holiday house at Christmas because everything is filing up so fast.

You're not very compassionate are you ? It's perfectly reasonable to expect to be able to fly whenever you like - it's been that way for all of our lives. Why would we expect something different ?

I don't find you very compassionate either. Millions of people can't actually afford to fly whenever they like, but people like you talk about it as though everyone does it. We are in the middle of a pandemic and yet you expect nothing to change, and everything to continue as normal, whatever the result. Talk about entitled!!!

Oh how reassuring to see some sensible posts, without the hysteria - which to be fair is usually coming from those who don't live in Australia/NZ and in many cases are not even affected.

I'm Australian and life here is pretty much normal. We practice common sense with social distancing and stay home if even slightly unwell. Restaurants are open, as are cinemas, pubs and gyms. Schools are operating and whilst many people are still WFH if it's an option for them I actually think that this may be a way of life moving forward as it seems to be working very well.

Most Australians don't actually know anyone who has had Covid. My BF's brother got it but he is working in Malaysia so it wasn't locally acquired.

I am happy with the way our government handled it by the most part, I definitely think it saved lives. The vaccine rollout is a bit of a shambles though but as life here is normal it hasn't really affected anyone.

Yes our borders are closed for the foreseeable future but it's a small price to pay for our health and way of life.

It’s really interesting that those of us actually living down here - and personally impacted by it - are understanding and accepting of temporary (for we all know it is only temporary) closed borders.

I wouldn't say that sums up the posts here at all! I think most people here, both inside and outside Oz/NZ, have mixed feelings about it all.

Well quite. But I guess my question is what you do about that? It’s politically unacceptable to allow indigenous populations to suffer, but I don’t think it’s politically acceptable to keep borders artificially closed because of them either. (That may be an ugly truth, but it’s a truth.)

That is a damned if you do and dammed if you don’t either way.

However, it’s moot at present really. If that was the ONLY barrier you could stomach the kick from the rest of the world for opening up when your Indigenous population are not populated (when many are not willing and you can’t force it).

The bigger issue is the rest of the population won’t be done anytime soon and there’s little the Govnt can do about that, and this is what is impacting the plan for opening.

We can’t vaccinate the majority of healthcare workers at present. The majority of these are under 50 and can only have Pfizer. Pretty much all of those over 50 are refusing the AZ at this point. So, most healthcare workers, frontline age care, essential workers etc can’t be done. When the Govnt made agreements and arrangements originally it was for a little of the Pfizer, which would be ready earlier, to kick us off and then AZ would take over and there was also arrangements for this to be made locally to ensure supply. While Pfizer have been asked to now supply more, that wasn’t in their plans, they can’t whip extra out of nowhere but there will be some start to dribble through but not in quantity and speed required as it was never factored in as they were told Aus would be getting AZ instead thanks. Frankly, good of them to give anything really.

Then with the rest of the population we had just started roll out when the AZ issue became known and this limited vax to over 50’s only given we turn only had the AZ to hand out. Obviously, most over 50’s don’t want that now and are refusing. Currently around 80% of scheduled vax’s have declined. It makes sense, we don’t have it here so they feel the risk to them of the AZ vax is greater than the risk of Covid which we don’t have due to closed borders. The majority of people seem happy to wait until a vax they are happy with is available and if that means closed borders so be it. They don’t feel like personally risking it so that a minority of people can see their family if separated and that’s a valid choice.

So the Govnt currently have frontline workers that can’t be vaccinated, the majority of the population quite happy to wait to be vaccinated (timeline dependant on availability of something that was never factored in or ordered initially, can’t be produced/delivered quickly and we are in a big queue with rest of world), and are happy for border to remain shut meanwhile. There is a minority who are unhappy as their sole focus is on borders opening to see family who are overseas. The Govnt is facing an election. These things work by majorities so that probably gives a clue as to where they will go with it but of course many factors such as how quickly Pfizer can pull unexpected orders out of thin air etc.

It's perfectly reasonable to expect to be able to fly whenever you like - it's been that way for all of our lives. Why would we expect something different?

You must be very young as it has not been this way ‘all of our lives’. In the scheme of things easily available air travel is quite recent. When I was young worked stints overseas, including one for close to a decade in the UK, you couldn’t just jump on a plane to return home. They weren’t frequent and the cost was absolutely horrendous even on a professional salary. When you went you accepted you would be missing out in births, deaths, marriages and everything inbetween. We only had snail mail (and it took weeks), no Internet, Facebook, Skype or email. Maybe a rushed phone call once a fortnight or month due to huge cost per minute. You made the best of it and comforted friends and colleagues who had direct family die when popping back was not an option. So, while sympathetic, many people are scratching heads a little wondering how people coped previously and not now.

Regarding repatriation, I dont have a full picture but I understand that a large proportion of the people waiting are new on the list having been settled overseas for good. People are requesting return in an ongoing basis.

Flights being cancelled etc also has to do with other countries shutting borders or cancelling flights so we are often dependent on them as a majority (European in particular) are not direct so have to be able to transit through other countries.

Im sure it's horrendous for those still waiting. Hopefully the government are doing everything possible to support them getting home.

I on the other hand am waiting to be able to visit my family in the uk after last years trip being cancelled.

@HoppingPavlova
80% of the over 50s are refusing AZ? Really? What, in Byron Bay?
Where are you getting this information? There is some vaccine hesitancy but you make it sound like the Australian population are largely refusing it.
Have you not seen the people turning up at the big vaxx centres in Victoria but turned away due to admin stuff ups? They want the vaccine.
Apart from one person, everyone I know is willing and eager for the AZ, and are just held back by the inefficient rollout.
I had my first last week ( I'm high risk) and have my booking for the second.