Who thinks Australia and NZ have got it right ?

[marilenagrace]

What do you think ? Do you think that keeping everyone out of the country is the right approach long term to deal with covid ? Do you wish we did that here in the UK ?

see whenever the issue of indigenous communities gets brought up in the discussion re Aus/NZ response it just gets ignored or side stepped by most posters. Instead of screeching about human rights abuses, cause we have to restrict most travel. why isn't there more concern about the preservation of indigenous lives and preservation of culture?
what the hell are we meant to do? Reservations in the US/Canada locked themselves down in a lot of cases. the indigenous populations of brazil have been decimated. but many British posters just fall silent when posters point out that has been a so far successful measure to protect a vulnerable population of people.

I agree it does get ignored. I know in Aus they are priority as either 1a or 1b, but I cannot find any figures on how they have done so far with vaccinating the indigenous population.

thanks for the nuanced descriptions of 'normal' in NZ & Aus
Normal is actually a new normal, etc.

Singapore is normal ... except things like the kids age 7+ must use a C&T app to go to school. New normal.

Hong Kong is normal, allowing for the mandatory masks everywhere, beaches only open since 1 April, and ban on large gatherings almost everywhere.

Jersey: New freedom, can have a party up to 20 people.

Lots of "Life is normal" = 'New normal', not the old normal.

*I regularly see her post girls nights out in bars, meals out with friends, beauty treatments, massages, days out with groups of friends, coffee shops with friends, shopping etc

Yeah, I can do all those things where I am in the US. I don't know why people act like Australia, NZ and a few other countries are the only "normal" places. Having tens of thousands of citizens stuck abroad, and stopping people seeing their loved ones for potentially years on end , and now the threat of jail for leaving their own country...well its far from normal isn't it? Zero covid/Their approach is not sustainable and they dont seem to have an exit plan, so good luck with that.*

Personally, I prefer to sacrifice travelling overseas for a couple of years compared to over half a million + covid deaths and the impact to kids being out of school....

Luckily the majority of Australians agree, love our mateship.

I do agree with an exit plan concern, realistically I think we'll need to reach heard immunity levels of the vaccine for this. And thanks to our government's balls up, I don't know when this will be. I feel for families too, but there is a process in place to be able to go overseas on compassionate grounds. I also think our government should be doing more to repatriate citizens, however, under our constitution we actually don't have this right to our own country.

@lljkk

thanks for the nuanced descriptions of 'normal' in NZ & Aus Normal is actually a new normal, etc.

Singapore is normal ... except things like the kids age 7+ must use a C&T app to go to school. New normal.

Hong Kong is normal, allowing for the mandatory masks everywhere, beaches only open since 1 April, and ban on large gatherings almost everywhere.

Jersey: New freedom, can have a party up to 20 people.

Lots of "Life is normal" = 'New normal', not the old normal.

Isle of Man - Normal, apart from borders which are changing over next month or so.

The only "New normal" will be adapting to less international travel. Travel to and from UK will be exactly as it was before and life in island is already exactly as it was before

Their approach is not sustainable and they dont seem to have an exit plan, so good luck with that

And you know this how?

@eaglejulesk

Their approach is not sustainable and they dont seem to have an exit plan, so good luck with that

And you know this how?

Presumably because no-one has seen a published exit plan for either country.

Aus still haven't repatriated some of their own citizens. That is barbaric and I am honestly surprised the residents have stuck it for so long.

I would be wanting to see a very clear pathway back to normal and some real commitments to getting the vaccinations sorted if I was living there.

@Flyornofly

Yes the clear comms point is a good one.

Just curious that people outside eg Dunedin are wearing masks in case someone coughs in Auckland! I personally think that’s OTT but as you say maybe it’s a signalling thing to everyone that they shouldn’t expect life to be normal.

Det I agree with you that Aus did exactly the right thing shutting the borders last year. I guess the more interesting question is what’s right looking forward - completely bungling the vaccine programme and failing to expand/make fit for purpose hotel quarantine seem two pretty big missteps to me & it’s totally unclear what the plan is on either

People move around a lot within in NZ. There was a lot of concern when a border worker or family member of one (I think it was) had missed a test because they were on leave. They travelled to multiple places across quite a lot of distances with multiple stops and visits at attractions etc. Doesn't take much to seed it across multiple regions.

Barbaric? This hyperbole is what prompted my posts pointing out how many people can't afford to visit family abroad. Is it 'barbaric' that there's no fund to pay for them to travel? Their situation is more permanent than this temporary ban.

The only alternative to temporary closed borders is hundreds of thousands of deaths, long term illness, ruined businesses, and long healthcare backlogs.

If you want to use dramatic words like barbaric, I'd say very limited border restrictions during a pandemic is more barbaric.

Barbaric to have Clinically Extremely Vulnerable people - including children - shut away for a year because of the risks to them from covid.

Vulnerable children stuck at home for a year because we didn't temporarily restrict our borders.

Of course temporary closed borders is shit. But to say it's barbaric knowing the consequences of the alternative is almost offensive.

@Tealightsandd

Barbaric? This hyperbole is what prompted my posts pointing out how many people can't afford to visit family abroad. Is it 'barbaric' that there's no fund to pay for them to travel? Their situation is more permanent than this temporary ban.

The only alternative to temporary closed borders is hundreds of thousands of deaths, long term illness, ruined businesses, and long healthcare backlogs.

If you want to use dramatic words like barbaric, I'd say very limited border restrictions during a pandemic is more barbaric.

Barbaric to have Clinically Extremely Vulnerable people - including children - shut away for a year because of the risks to them from covid.

Vulnerable children stuck at home for a year because we didn't temporarily restrict our borders.

Of course temporary closed borders is shit. But to say it's barbaric knowing the consequences of the alternative is almost offensive.

Why have you taken one word and taken it completely out of context.

Not repatriating residents is barbaric. There is no reason at all why that couldn't be done safely. In fact, there is no reason why lots of travel can't be done safely, a blanket ban is just stupid.

I say that as someone who hasn't practically been travel over the short stretch of water between me and my family for over a year. Thankfully they have seen sense and I am now book for next month.

Barbaric is an absolutely ridiculous description. Yes, it's tough for families who can't see each other (mine included) but we've lived completely normally in WA, bar 2 weeks of home schooling. Our bars and restaurants are mostly thriving, the bulk of our tourist industry is faring pretty well as nobody can go to Bali for a cheap holidays anymore, and if anybody's suffering it's got to be the poor Balinese or those in other tourist type destinations, so really, anybody living here and complaining should be taking a good look at themselves and how tough others have it.

And I'm still yet to see an answer on how to protect our indigenous populations, who let's face it aren't particularly impacted by not being able to travel to Europe, so maybe for once the rest of the country can bear the brunt of it.

The only way to protect the indigenous population is to vaccinate the majority of the people living in Australia and offer ant boosters that may be needed further down the line.
The government should have invested in more than 2 vaccines.

I’m hoping that for all my moaning about missing family, that I’m proved entirely wrong and at some point next year I can visit family or they can visit me.

I think Australia has done an amazing job. Yes, there is a delay with the vax rollout but I do think the states will be more involved and there will be an effective rollout. I don’t know anyone personally that is frustrated about the border closures most prefer their current lifestyle over any desire for international travel.

It is not “barbaric” to require extremely clinically vulnerable people to shield as an alternative to locking down entire countries and/or keeping hundreds of thousands of families separated across borders. This is what we do for every single other infectious disease in existence.

It is also not correct to say that two families in the U.K. have not been able to see each other since March 2020. There have been large chunks of time in which they have been permitted to do so. I don’t know why anyone keeps repeating that.

Again, no one is disputing that closed borders weren’t the right thing as a temporary measure. But shutting the border for 2-3-4+ years is not a temporary measure, it is a cruel deprivation for hundreds of thousands of people to see family probably for the last time and a loss of family relationships. Again, I am very pleased that some posters don’t have this problem and can “live normally” but a government deciding to “take things slow” on vaccines while a large chunk of its population are stranded and separated across an impermeable border is criminal in my view.

Also you are quite right about indigenous communities and they are often overlooked. The solution would have been to double down on the procurement of vaccines to ensure there were enough to quickly vaccinate indigenous populations, and come up with a strategy to do so ASAP. The Australian government has failed on both counts. I don’t know why posters in London are responsible for the utter lack of reporting on this issue in the Australian media. But thank you for shining a light on it.

barbaric is ridiculous.

Govt has provided repat flights (agree - not enough) it has also provided financial assistance to many stranded. It also provides loans to people who cannot afford flight costs. many people got caught up in the closures of transit destinations (esp when closed due to varients from countries like the UK started to emerge and screwed the repat flights from London for example) - restricting routes. i don't know what exactly is possible when planes need to refuel but not able to land??
Not everybody jumped on planes immediately, so the line has been steadily maintained not reduced and many duel citizens have decided to return or utilise their means to live in Australia and ride out the worst of the next few years, adding to the stats. Other countries are still repatriating citizens from other continents so Aus/Nz are hardly alone in taking time in doing so.
Unfortunately Australians largest asset in this pandemic - physical distance, also makes it incredibly difficult to access for those wishing to return. And obviously hotel quarantine makes entry difficult - there are only so many facilities. its shit but in a global pandemic there are many layers of shit. death, illness, financial ruin, social problems, restrictions etc etc
its horrible and I imagine incredibly frustrating but its not barbaric. barbaric is allowing the virus to run rampant in the population when it could otherwise be controlled and death and illness and all the social fallout be avoided.

9000 Australians shuck in just one county, desperate to get "home" happy to quarantine on return and not being allowed. Seems pretty barbaric to me and sure as anything if it was happening in the UK all those saying what a great job Australia is doing wouldn't be standing for it (at least I hope not)

www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-27/india-covid-19-australians-stuck-abroad-flights-vaccination/100028384

@Flyornofly

Also you are quite right about indigenous communities and they are often overlooked. The solution would have been to double down on the procurement of vaccines to ensure there were enough to quickly vaccinate indigenous populations, and come up with a strategy to do so ASAP. The Australian government has failed on both counts. I don’t know why posters in London are responsible for the utter lack of reporting on this issue in the Australian media. But thank you for shining a light on it.

Posters in London arent responsible for the reporting... i personally was commenting on the complete disregard for the topic when it is brought up by Australians or NZs in the Aus/Nz threads. People try to reasonably explain the countries responses and they get completely ignored in the following conversations.

i believe indigenous communities have been prioritised in the vax rollout but obviously with some extreme logistical complications of the Pfizer vax (the first vax to arrive in aus) needed sub temps meaning increased logistical difficult to get to regional remote areas.
ABC and SBS have quite good reporting on the implications of COVID on indigenous Australians and the govt has a dedicated website for information for perusal.

barbaric is allowing the virus to run rampant in the population when it could otherwise be controlled and death and illness and all the social fallout be avoided.
@TheHoneyFactory I think it's not that simple, I know the UK scientists would agree with me there. I wouldn't go as far as to say its barbaric that Australians can't return but given the length of time it's increasingly worrying. My family are in Ireland and we have been seeing each other when things have opened up. I can't imagine how devastated I was separated from them for one year plus (just illustrating that many of us in the UK and Europe are in this kind of situation).

The solution would have been to double down on the procurement of vaccines to ensure there were enough to quickly vaccinate indigenous populations, and come up with a strategy to do so ASAP.

It’s not that simple. The initial stock of Pfizer vaccine was not suitable for most Indigenous communities due to its difficult transport and storage requirements vs remote areas where it’s required. So the AZ vaccine was being relied on for this given the relative ease of transport and storage in comparison, although still taking into account the general challenges of the heat in many of these areas with vaccines in general. Now, understandably, their is nervousness giving a vaccine with issues being seen to this vulnerable population and while the risk/benefit may be acceptable to the Govnt with the AZ vaccine for the older population only, that doesn’t necessarily extend to the Indigenous population when there are other measures that can protect them such as closed borders, while acknowledging this provides difficulties with other aspects as most have mentioned on this thread.

Well those examples are crap, she only left Australia 10 days ago! And has a flight booked back but is just worried that it might not happen. I'll be honest, she was nuts to go back 10 days ago and leave her kids, I work closely with colleagues in India, and things were heading that way back then, particularly with festival season and the state elections coming.

I can't stand our Federal government, and would be great if we could get vaccinated quicker, but to be honest, there are a lot of countries that should be in the front of the queue ahead of us. We should be last to get the vaccines, let the more vulnerable get it 1st.

Aus still haven't repatriated some of their own citizens. That is barbaric and I am honestly surprised the residents have stuck it for so long.

Oh do get over yourself!

I would be wanting to see a very clear pathway back to normal and some real commitments to getting the vaccinations sorted if I was living there.

But you don't live there, so a) you really have no idea what is happening & b) it's got nothing to do with you.

i understand completly the pain and frustration of being separated from family, with my own in the UK (infact they were in Aus when borders were shut, but state border closures meant they were in aus for 6months but we could not see them,different states. they then took the chance to return to the UK start of last summer when cases dropped and Singapore resumed flights/allowed transit, knowing we wont see them for possibly years). its shit.

Of course it’s barbaric that there are thousands of people stranded. And that’s not counting those who aren’t stranded (and not showing up on those DFAT lists) but will be separated from their families for 3-4+ years. Why is the only solution shitty hotel quarantine? Planes are flying empty. The government has had 14 months to sort this out and has done NOTHING and shows no sign of doing anything other than “well we’ll just wait and see”. That is utterly barbaric.

On the indigenous logistical issues, again, most were entirely predictable. And again no published plan as to how to deal with them (why are the special fridges needed not arriving in remote Queensland communities until MAY?) On top of that the bungling of the communication of risk around the extremely rare side effect associated with AZ could have catastrophic consequences for indigenous populations.

@HoppingPavlova - you're so right about the logistical difficulties, some of the remote communities are 100's of KM driving, in red dirt roads that would generally need a 4x4, that's assuming you can get them flown up to Broome / Kunnanara airports in the 1st place. Some can be cut off for weeks / months on end anyway, depending what's happening with the Gibb River road.