Australia says no to AZ and J&J vaccines--vax rollout likely to be delayed by months

[Kokeshi123]

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/13/australia-wont-buy-johnson-johnsons-one-dose-covid-vaccine-due-to-astrazeneca-similarities

I know quite a lot of Ozzies who are completely stranded outside their country due to the fact that they cannot keep small children within a hotel room for two weeks and pay a fortune for the priviledge. As it is, it's looking like Oz will not be removing its quarantine requirements until well into 2022 at the earliest.

I mean, I do think that a basic strategy of "(1) Hold borders tight with Zero Covid until the vax>(2) Unroll vax> (3) Open borders" is a sound one, but it does depend on the second and third bits of the plan actually happening...

[quote MoppaSprings]@Tealightsandd no one is saying fling the borders open now and just let covid rampage through the country.
We all know it’s got to be phased and along side keep testing, keep scanning QR code’s, keep testing waste water.

It would be helpful to know when travel is likely.

I said in my first post the longer it takes for them to properly vaccinate people the longer it will take for the phased opening.[/quote]
@MoppaSprings

I probably haven't expressed it well but I agree with you. All your posts really.

The border restrictions won't be forever
Vaccines are being rolled out, even if there's a small delay. There's also good news on the treatment front. Trials look promising. When Australia opens up, it will be to much reduced risk.

Then understand our frustrations of not knowing when or if we will ever see our family members again. ( as invincible as my 90 year old gran seems, she’s not going to live forever).

You can’t even leave in an emergency, it can take weeks to get an approval to leave Australia. They are very strict with their reasons
I do understand things have been much worse in the Uk, but that’s not what this thread is about. It’s pointless comparing the Uk and Australia.
I am allowed to miss my family and feel despair that I may not see them again.

I am allowed to feel aggrieved that once other parts of the world are able to travel freely I may still not be allowed to leave Australia.

I know how lucky I have been to be in Australia when covid hit, but it does not negate my feelings now

@spottygymbag I don’t think you have to take a banner ad out when you have the federal health minister on record this week as saying that it doesn’t follow that the borders will be opened after everyone is vaccinated. (Not the vulnerable, all Australians.)

If that doesn’t point to a zero covid strategy then what does?

Yes that's what he said. Also that the push will be to vaccinate by year end despite setbacks (obviously a moving target in a pandemic).
If you read a little wider than the clickbait headlines it's also easily seen that (as per my post) it's a temporary approach and that Australia will be moving easing borders etc.
zero covid is not Australia's end game.

My point wasn't very clear there- vaccinations does not automatically equal open borders to everyone everywhere. What it does mean is the opportunity to test easing restrictions and reintroducing travel based on medical advice, science, and the caging situation in other countries which is entirely not within Australia's control.

It may not be the endgame but I don’t think the end is close in any meaningful terms

If you look past the headlines the language the governments are using is “won’t put the lives of Australians at risk”. If your starting point is zero covid then yes any relaxation will do so.

I hope you are right, but fear you are not.

Both Australia and New Zealand have already been saying that some cases will come in and that we need to maintain vigilance but that our systems are currently in a place where we can manage this.
This is particularly in relation to the trans Tasman bubble but is a specific example where they are saying it is inevitable yet we must carry on.
Of course it is slow and measured-its a thousand times easier to proceed slowly and cautiously than try and shove the cat back in the bag once it's out. Compared with UK we are mostly unvaccinated (1.59m doses within pop of 25.69m) with a still limited vaccine supply.
I think we would all love to be charging through the vaccination scheduled phases and moving towards opening borders but how exactly do you suggest we do this when there is a limited supply globally?
The quarantine program is our middle ground by enabling a trickle to come in without compromising the current day to day situation for millions of others.

I do understand your frustrations Moppa
I thought I'd made it clear but I'm sorry if I haven't.

I don't know if I'll ever be able to see some of my own elderly CEV family ever again. They're in the UK, like me, but (definitely until I'm fully vaccinated) it's too risky for the travel involved in visiting. If the scientists concerns are right, about the Indian variant (already in the UK) the wait will be even longer.

I'm up late tonight because I've just been speaking to my own Australian relatives. I'd love to see them again. I also don't want them to get covid or long covid.

I really hope you get to see your family again. I hope too the UK doesn't suffer the predicted 50,000 extra deaths.

As I've said, it's shit to have temporary closed borders, but I also stand by my view that Australia made the right choice. It was a choice between two not good options.

I wish Australia luck with the vaccine rollout. It's the biggest hurdle to overcome, I think, on the road to opening up. Also, in a few months who knows. Perhaps the new home treatments currently in trial might be available.

Also the figures you quote. One third of Aussies born overseas. So two thirds - the majority - weren't. And, of the one third born overseas or the 50% with a parent abroad - a fair chunk of these people will be refugees.

I keep seeing those figures quoted also, and they are misleading. 'A fair chunk of these people will be refugees' is incorrect however, but a more correct statement would be a fair chunk of these people will be NZers, rather than relating to Europe, the US etc.

I don’t know many doing that here, but I can’t work out if you meant to aim it all all U.K. posters or just a few.

It was aimed at, as I said "the UK posters on MN who haven't left the house in over a year and are still sanitising everything that moves" and there are some, I've seen the posts.

I'm just sick of people in the UK who think they are so superior and they know what's best for other countries and their covid response (despite their own countries less than ideal efforts). As I said, we are not thick in this part of the world and there will be no-one who who thinks we should stay closed off and totally covid free forever.

Yeah sorry I guessed majorly wrong about refugees.

Yes good point. A lot are NZers.

Hope this works! Population breakdown of Aus, for interests sake.

And then if you take a family like mine, I have two Australian born children, who have two British born parents so all their grandparents are in the U.K. So even out of the Australian born Australians, a lot have very close links with other countries.

I really wish I could take a banner ad out sometimes. The Aus strategy isn't zero covid forever. It was to provide initial protection while the health system capacity was increased, and treatments and vaccinations were developed.
Yes they are planning to vaccinate.
Yes they are currently stuck on hold with the same clotting issue a lot of countries are facing with AZ no supply issues for others.
Yes the majority over here want to be vaccinated.
Yes they want the borders to open, but not when most are unvaccinated.
Yes they have and are talking about covid being endemic, a long term issue and thy we will have to accept a low level of cases.

Honestly, I think we all accept that "Oz will open up when vaccinated." But of course people want to discuss the details of how and when this will happen!

Part of the reason for the speculation is that "when people are vaccinated" is not an "either/or" thing, and "opening borders" is also not "either/or." Some people will always refuse the vaccine. Then there is the question of children's vaccinations, the trials for which have barely begun. Then questions about varients, different types of vaccines, and different levels of risk in different countries. Will Oz consider the population "vaccinated" when most adults are done, or when the vaccine has been offered to everyone, or do kids have to be vaccinated, and what if there is continuing worry about needing boosters, updates, or different varients in particular countries?

I have no doubt that there will be gradual peeling back of the restrictions going forward, but it may not be this kind of simple "Hooray, vaxing is DONE, now let's throw the borders open" thing.

Yes I am interested in what will happen with children. If they’re not going to be offered the vaccine, will they still be able to travel? Because they can spread it but I guess if everyone else is vaccinated (by and large) then it doesn’t matter as much. Interesting.

Also curious about children. Maybe a negative test and no flying with cold symptoms (although we know they can be asymptomatic).

Honestly, I think we all accept that "Oz will open up when vaccinated." But of course people want to discuss the details of how and when this will happen!

Yes, this! I’m tired of being painted on this thread as somehow being against Australia’s approach to date (despite zero evidence!) rather than being concerned that, as time goes on, the lack of a published long term ‘normalisation’ strategy (based on broad principles, no one is expecting dates or timeframes or anything like that) leaves it more vulnerable to political rather than scientific influence as we head towards 2022.

And god it would do wonders for my own mental health to know (rather than guess/speculate/hope) what the plan is. Even if the plan is shit for me as an Australian overseas.

(And worth saying - though i don’t buy the ‘it’s the Australian or U.K. approach’ binary - that the UK Govt has been just as guilty of this. Governments not trusting their populations and wanting to retain maximum flexibility and minimum accountability is a hallmark of this pandemic...)

@Kokeshi123 many posters ask the same questions on repeat and when given reasonable answers from those actually living the situation that don't tie in with the overly dramatic "but the borders will never open! How will they ever get of out this!" they completely ignore it and keep up with the dramatics. Hence the billboard. To get a few of the key facts across. So at least the opinions and discussions are informed.

I also think comparing each country's approach to COVID management is not helpful. Australia and NZ have done very well at closing borders and stopping the spread of infection - but it is clear that this is only feasible because of their isolated geographical location, absence of major travel hub, low population density and lack of reliance on other nations for basic day to day needs.

How on earth could we expect the likes India to do this. Or Europe?

The countries who have had higher levels of COVID can be criticised for allowing spread but then they have also tended to pioneer vaccines and treatments which offer a more long term solution for use on a global basis.

low population density

Low population density is a bit of a red herring tbh. It’s mentioned a lot but it’s worth remembering that Australia is more urbanised than the UK. (Though most urban areas are still less densely populated than British equivalents.)

I agree with much of your overall point (though I think the UK made some abysmal choices within its own circumstances) but I’m not sure that there’s much evidence that population density has been a major factor in urban areas (as opposed to eg overcrowding in individual households).

@JassyRadlett completely understand where you are coming from. I am really struggling with all my family back in Australia. It is so tough not knowing when I will see them again. One of them being unwell and me not being able to get back there in time was my biggest concern when I moved here nearly 20 years ago but I always told myself Australia was just 24 hours away. Having that taken away is heart breaking. Well meaning friends keep saying 'I'm sure you'll be able to go there by Christmas' or 'I'm sure you could get there if you really needed to'. But even if I knew it wasn't going to be until Xmas 2022, at least that would give me something to work towards. The lack of information from the Australian government is a concern. I feel trapped here!

One of them being unwell and me not being able to get back there in time was my biggest concern when I moved here nearly 20 years ago but I always told myself Australia was just 24 hours away. Having that taken away is heart breaking.

This is exactly it. I wouldn’t have agreed to us living here if I hadn’t had the means and ability to get back relatively quickly in an emergency.

I had a colleague whose dad died suddenly in Australia last year. Of course she went home as quickly as she could (and spent a fortune doing so thanks to the shitty practices of all concerned in that regard) but then spent two weeks grieving for her dad in hotel quarantine while the funeral etc was happening. It was just my worst nightmare.

I know there are family members I’ll never see again now. But as you say, I’d rather have bad news than the airy-fairy ‘read what you want into this statement!’ that the govt is currently deploying to try to keep everyone happy.

Tealightsandd

I think everyone might have got the message about the 150,000 deaths by now 😖

I mean, to seriously suggest that it's preferable to have 150,000 dead, 1 million long term ill, ruined businesses, and a five year healthcare backlog confused

Jesus christ, give it a rest won't you