Now 79 cases of AZ-related blood clots in the U.K. and 19 deaths *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[Boringlynormal]

How have we gone - in the past 10 days - from:

5 cases - all men
To
30 cases, 7 deaths
To
79 cases and 19 deaths, 2/3 of them are women.

What the hell is going on?!

Yes I know it’s still low compared to overall number than have had the vaccine but that’s not reassuring when they don’t seem to have had a clue about the numbers and let us all continue getting the vaccine with no warning even when Europe was sounding huge alarm bells.

I’m 12 days post AZ, mid 30s and very upset.

[quote TimeQuest01]@Namechange1991x,
I don't know if you can test for this specific blood clot

this link has been posted a few times.

It’s the current guidance to detect and treat this specific blood clot.

b-s-h.org.uk/media/19512/guidance-version-10-on-mngmt-of-thrombosis-with-thrombocytopenia-occurring-after-c-19-vaccine_20210401.pdf[/quote]
I mean test for a genetic link or that you have a disorder related to clotting.
I am not interested in reading how to diagnose it.
They missed it in my mum and she died due to that so it's upsetting to read

@Dustyboots

What I don’t understand is that we’ve been told again and again that these vaccines are safe - tried and thoroughly tested! They’re NOT an experiment. Not in any way ...

Yet this blood clotting thing is a surprise to all the scientists. What other long or shot term side effects will surprise them? What else do they not expect or know?

How can this be called anything other than an experiment?

All drugs which work have side effects.

The AZ vaccine was tested on tens of thousands of people, as were all the other vaccines. These very rare but very serious side effects didn’t show up during the trials precisely because they are so very rare.

Yes, the vaccines could have been trialled on hundreds of thousands, or even millions of people before being rolled out. That probably would have flagged up the rare side effects but it would have taken years during which the virus would have been killing tens of thousands of people every single day, and given how rare the side effects are the vaccine would have been approved anyway.

This isn’t a new headache tablet. It’s a highly effective life saving vaccine. For the vast majority of people, the tiny risks of the vaccine are massively outweighed by the very significant risks of catching covid. I will be having my second dose of the AZ vaccine when it’s my turn.

"Why aren't you all standing up and saying 'no thanks, we should be having one of the others'?"

This raises a question I asked on another thread. The advice from the JCVI is that under 30s should be offered an alternative to AZ if it is available. That seems quite carefully worded. If no alternative is available, are the JCVI saying under 30s should go ahead with AZ or not? Have we ordered enough mRNA vaccines for under 30s?

OP have you ever taken ibuprofen?
These are just some of the rare side effects -
Meningitis Not Due To An Infection, Heart Attack, Chronic Heart Failure, Stroke, Hallucinations, Kidney Failure

www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-5166-368/ibuprofen-oral/ibuprofen-chewable-oral/details/list-sideeffects

This is how 'Rare' is defined on the NHS website -
Rare: between 1 in 1,000 and 1 in 10,000 people are affected
and
Very rare: fewer than 1 in 10,000 people are affected

I've worked in running clinical trials for 25 years. I would have no problem taking the AZ vaccine - I'd be more concerned that its efficacy is not as high as some of the others, but not worried about side effects, they are just too rare. And the efficacy data seems to show that its better than the flu vaccine in a 'good' year, and for me thats good enough.

@Sunshinegirl82

I know modern medicine can save people in emergencies sometimes.

But medicine is handed out too often and so much of it is toxic and has awful side effects. I have a disabled child and have to fight to avoid medication of all sorts pushed on us. I’m called negligent for not accepting it.

We are poisoning ourselves willingly so many of us when there are healthy holistic- simple - ways of treating things instead. But those methods make no money for drug companies do they?

Mainstream medicine is a money making machine. Even the AZ vaccine, that we’ve been told is non profit making ...

@Noname99

I’m not ‘young’ .... in my 40s and supposed to be having the vaccine next week. But if it’s AZ, I shall be saying no. Much rather take my chances with covid .... I have no risk factors for covid so very likely it’s going to be a mild infection for me. Mild cough/cold type symptoms vs blood clot on the brain .... easy choice as far as I’m concerned!

Isn't the risk of blood clots higher with Covid than from the vaccine?

Blood clots was one of the things I was scanned and assessed for, along with others, when I was ill in hospital with Covid in October.

@Abraxan The risk of getting a blood clot is much higher with Covid than with the AZ vaccine but that seems to have passed so many by .....

This link is interesting. It basically says that we need to watch all the vaccines as any of them could have this (tiny tiny) risk

www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/blood-clotting-needs-to-be-watched-with-all-covid-vaccines-states-the-association-of-american-physicians-and-surgeons-aaps-301262360.html

From the above link:
At least 37 people have developed a rare platelet disorder after receiving the Pfizer or Moderna shot; 56-year-old Florida obstetrician Gregory Michael died three days after receiving the Pfizer product.

I can't prove any of this of course this either but I'll be astonished if the J&J vaccine doesn't have similar issues that become clear in time

For instance the link below says Dr. Annelies Wilder-Smith, the technical advisor to the SAGE secretariat, said that there were 14 “thromboembolic events” among 22,000 people tested with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine

www.aa.com.tr/en/latest-on-coronavirus-outbreak/who-expert-group-says-johnson-johnson-vaccine-is-safe/2179303

Overall I remain convinced that the pharmaceutical companies can't afford for the AZ vaccine to be a great success, otherwise they will be forced to think about losing profit in the next pandemic themselves. They can't set a precedent.

I think that data will eventually come out that AZ it really not much worse for clots than most of the other vaccines but the damage will have been done by then. That is of course only one opinion

Whether the risks are marginally higher with the AZ vaccine is possible but the risks are so small I have absolutely no worries about getting my second vaccine.

But the elephant is this - what about the other vaccines? With the best available data at this point in time, the other vaccines are "safer" for want of a better term. Why is it acceptable to just swallow the stats and take ones chances with AZ? Why aren't you all standing up and saying 'no thanks, we should be having one of the others'?

The other vaccines have risks and side effects too. I don’t think any of them have been deemed safer than the others because the risk of side effects affects individuals differently so I don’t think it’s possible to say.

@Dustyboots

But an attitude that all medicines are toxic and unnecessary is just as problematic as overuse of medicines.

After DS1 was born I developed pre eclampsia and the drugs they gave me got my blood pressure down from a level where I was in hypertensive crisis with a high risk of having a stroke. I can't see how that could have been resolved any other way to be honest. Plus I was pretty grateful for the oramorph that dulled down the headache the high bp was causing that made me want to rip off my own head!

The big pharma argument has never worked for me in the U.K. Why would the NHS push toxic medicines on people in order to benefit drug companies? For whose benefit? I can see how it works in the US with insurance companies etc but it makes no logical sense to me in the U.K.

@Dustyboots

"What I don’t understand is that we’ve been told again and again that these vaccines are safe - tried and thoroughly tested!"

You are being completely and ridiculously unrealistic....You realise these side effects has a less than 1 in 1,000,000 chance of death. That is only something so infinitesimally rare could possibly recognised is if 10,000,000s of vaccines are given - i.e most of the population.

Do you also realise that there's about 100 times
more chance of a blood clot with the pill?!

[quote mollypuss1]@Abraxan The risk of getting a blood clot is much higher with Covid than with the AZ vaccine but that seems to have passed so many by .....[/quote]
Yes I agree.

Many people think they're invincible when it comes to Covid and assume they'll be fine.

I wasn't too worried myself. I'm cv due to medication but nothing that would normally reduce my life span.

Covid made me pretty poorly. The cough and fever didn't particularly. The huge rise in blood pressure that came with it did though and had me rushed to a and e due to the very real risk of heart attack or stroke, and the concern I may have had blood clots threatening me. It's been 6 months and I'm still not right fully, and I'll be taking two lots of full dose blood pressure meds for life since Covid.

I couldn't wait to get my first vaccine. Not sure if cope with a second bout of Covid right now.

@hodgebit

*@Dustyboots*

"What I don’t understand is that we’ve been told again and again that these vaccines are safe - tried and thoroughly tested!"

You are being completely and ridiculously unrealistic....You realise these side effects has a less than 1 in 1,000,000 chance of death. That is only something so infinitesimally rare could possibly recognised is if 10,000,000s of vaccines are given - i.e most of the population.

Do you also realise that there's about 100 times
more chance of a blood clot with the pill?!

You are right of course but usually if you have a higher risk or history of blood clots you won’t be offered that kind of pill. I’d be interested to know what, if any, risk factors there are to developing this type of clot. For example I have a history or heart disease and embolism am I at more risk? My mum is bed bound so immobile and already more at risk of blood clots so shouldn’t she have it (she has already had the vaccine but I’m just making a point). I’d definitely like to know more of the surrounding circumstances for sure.

What are the statistics for "naturally occurring" clots in the general population? To me it seems this may be the answer more than the vaccine.

I am on a vaccine trial so I have no vested interest in AZ but if I had not been on a trial I would have gone and got which ever vaccine they offered. My personal risk assessment says I am more likely to have a problem with covid19 than vaccine.

@bumblingbovine49 I think you may well be right. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few months as more becomes known about all the vaccines. I am still content to get the second AZ jab.

@hodgebit

*@Dustyboots*

"What I don’t understand is that we’ve been told again and again that these vaccines are safe - tried and thoroughly tested!"

You are being completely and ridiculously unrealistic....You realise these side effects has a less than 1 in 1,000,000 chance of death. That is only something so infinitesimally rare could possibly recognised is if 10,000,000s of vaccines are given - i.e most of the population.

Do you also realise that there's about 100 times
more chance of a blood clot with the pill?!

Not sure why the one in a million is being quoted everywhere given the MHRA themselves have said today it's a 1:250,000 risk of developing CVST with low blood platelets. That's reduced the risk by a factor of 4 and a potential to increase as more evidence accumulates.

We are poisoning ourselves willingly so many of us when there are healthy holistic- simple - ways of treating things instead. But those methods make no money for drug companies do they?

I do agree with you in many ways.
I don’t take any medication on a daily basis, I don’t even take paracetamol unless it’s a last resort. I prefer to eat healthy and exercise, increase sleep, decrease stress etc before resorting to medicine but I also have all of my vaccinations and will take medicine if I need it. I wouldn’t be here without modern medicine so I’m so thankful for it but I also think too many people rely on it which is how they become resistant to antibiotics.

I think finding the right balance between refusing vaccinations, hospital treatments etc and not taking unnecessary medication should be found.

[quote Dustyboots]@Sunshinegirl82

I know modern medicine can save people in emergencies sometimes.

But medicine is handed out too often and so much of it is toxic and has awful side effects. I have a disabled child and have to fight to avoid medication of all sorts pushed on us. I’m called negligent for not accepting it.

We are poisoning ourselves willingly so many of us when there are healthy holistic- simple - ways of treating things instead. But those methods make no money for drug companies do they?

Mainstream medicine is a money making machine. Even the AZ vaccine, that we’ve been told is non profit making ...[/quote]
How will holistic approaches prevent my joints from becoming damaged so that I don't end up disabled when older due to arthritis? It might be able to help with the pain at times but the long term damage?

How would holistic approaches keep my blood pressure from being sky high putting me at risk of heart attack and stroke?

How would an holistic approach have helped me sort out my svt that had my heart beating at 280bpm before I had ablation?

How would an holistic approach have helped me to give birth to my stuck DD? Or how to repair adhesions sticking my uterus together causing intense pain for months (years)?

What are the statistics for "naturally occurring" clots in the general population? To me it seems this may be the answer more than the vaccine.

The thrombosis website says 1 in 4 people die from causes related to blood clots and every 37 seconds someone in the western world does from them.

My friend was the radiographer, she did the external scan on my ovaries and then asked if I wanted to look at anything else, and I did!

I don’t know where to start on how many ways of unprofessional this is!

Not sure why the one in a million is being quoted everywhere given the MHRA themselves have said today it's a 1:250,000 risk of developing CVST with low blood platelets. That's reduced the risk by a factor of 4 and a potential to increase as more evidence accumulates.

79 clots and 19 deaths out of about 20 million vaccinations, so 1:250,000 risk of a clot or 1:1,000,000 of death.

The risk of a blood clot on a short haul flight is 1:100,000 (1:50,000 for a holiday with a return trip), significantly higher again on a longer haul one. How many people who now aren't going to get a vaccine are also never going to fly again? I'd put money on nobody.

@GypsyWanderer I agree with your post. I have a blood clotting disorder that so far is only medicated in Pregnancy and as I'm
Not pregnant was advised to get the vaccine. I was given the AZ one 11 days ago.

Yes I'm feeling on edge. I'd like more information on risk factors before I accept the second dose.

Not sure why the one in a million is being quoted everywhere given the MHRA themselves have said today it's a 1:250,000 risk of developing CVST with low blood platelets. That's reduced the risk by a factor of 4 and a potential to increase as more evidence accumulates.

Because that IS the current risk of death - 19 deaths in 20 million jabs.

By comparison your chance of dropping dead from SADS which can happen to anyone, at any time, is about 1 in 100,000.

I read though that this particular type of blood clot is rarer. 5 in 1 million people.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/cerebral-venous-sinus-thrombosis%3Famp%3Dtrue

[quote Dustyboots]@Sunshinegirl82

I know modern medicine can save people in emergencies sometimes.

But medicine is handed out too often and so much of it is toxic and has awful side effects. I have a disabled child and have to fight to avoid medication of all sorts pushed on us. I’m called negligent for not accepting it.

We are poisoning ourselves willingly so many of us when there are healthy holistic- simple - ways of treating things instead. But those methods make no money for drug companies do they?

Mainstream medicine is a money making machine. Even the AZ vaccine, that we’ve been told is non profit making ...[/quote]
Holistic medicine is just another name for snake-oil.

As the old adage goes, "a fool and his money are easily parted".

A colleague of mine is a "holistic medical practitioner", i.e. a fraud. Last year she was trying to convince me that she'd use Quantum Mechanics to fix my back... I took an option in Theoretical Physical Chemistry during my degree so I know quite a bit about QM. I asked her to explain it to me... it was really difficult not to burst out laughing with the nonsense she came out with.