MHRA may change advice for young people receiving AZ vaccine

[IloveSooty424]

I just saw this news story on Channel 4 news tonight.

www.channel4.com/news/uk-medicines-regulator-considers-issuing-new-advice-over-oxford-astrazeneca-jab

It seems the MHRA may follow other European countries and Canada and advise that younger people should not receive the AZ vaccine. It seems the decision will be made imminently in the coming days.

I’m due to book my vaccine this week and don’t know whether to wait and see how this plays out. I’m 42. I’m also concerned that if younger people will only be offered the Pfizer vaccine it will slow down the vaccine programme substantially.

Any thoughts?

Oh, of course. It was Spain, where my parents and their siblings live and have been vaccinated (but I think that was more who they know than the system in place. Their village mayor is a very scary man!)... I didn't put 2 and 2 together

The risk is extremely low, but I suspect it will turn out to be higher in younger cohorts than current data predicts. Yes, as they said, often, yesterday. Research is ongoing. But 'vanishingly rare' is a strong statement and cases would have to grow exponentially to become significant. As they also explained yesterday

It’s also morally reprehensible to coerce women aged 30-50 into having the AZ vaccine when they appear to be at most risk. What evidence for that increased risk? As an absolute number it is meaningless. As a percentage of women vaccinated there is no measurable increased risk. More women have had AZ, so if it was significant you'd imagine there's have been some indication. Graphs on the data didn't suggest that!

If they want to deprive people of their freedom for having the temerity not to accept a vaccine, then everyone should be given a choice Temerity? OK! But there is no suggestion of that anywhere. And those who may have heightened RR are being offered a choice, AZ or Other - if and only if there is an alternative.

Again, research is ongoing. That may change again. And it still won't be a u-turn, it will be a development based on extant knowledge.

Could you take a deep breath and actually study the evidence that has been provided?

And I know that your personal take on it is based on your personal health issues how?

Your statements make no reference to it. Your personal RR makes some of what you post make sense, for you and you alone!

@CuriousaboutSamphire
I think we should follow the european example because we should err on the side of caution - at the present time there is no enough evidence to discount a gender-specific risk factor.

There was a question posed to the Dr and Linda Bauld on BBC news this morning about the risk of blood clots being higher from AZ if you were on the pill or varicose veins. Both responders ignored the question about the pill and chose to talk about varicose veins.

There is a long history of medical treatments / interventions not being fully analysed for gender impact - read the chapter in 'Invisible Women' about this.

So without any solid evidence on risk factors, gender breakdown and age I think the UK should be more cautious

@CuriousaboutSamphire yes, I frequently think ‘oh good grief’ when the ‘granny killer’ lines get trotted out. Possibly time to put them to rest given that the data is showing that the vaccine is preventing severe disease and deaths in the older population and, iirc, uptake in over 70s is around 90%.

@TroubleUsedToBeMyBusiness EMA (the European agency) said tho that the vaccine is recommended for all ages and sex. it's individual countries who are deciding to do what it's the right thing and each one is doing a different thing , some are vaccinating with az independently the age, some only 55+ some 60+ some 1 dose, some both... so which is the right approach?

@BuggerBognor why was you dh refused treatment ? You should be complaining to your trust especially as you state he is a dr so he would know how to go about this ?

And some countries are not offering the AZ at all at the moment before they can understand more about the risks.

It’s reasonable for people to be given a choice
I agree. Take what you’re offered or don’t. That’s a choice. However I don’t agree with people who have no medical qualifications being able to demand a certain vaccine on a whim.

@EasterIssland
I doubt there has been much research to establish any specific risk factors re AZ . So until such a time as more research is done I think it is quite reasonable to let under 60s have a choice about whether they want AZ or another vaccine.

@BuggerBognor you can have the choice but you will have to wait , no one is forcing you to have a vaccine at all
The simple facts are there are not enough doses of other vaccines at present to give a choice , that will change but not for some time so you will need to wait
Do you think the other vaccines are totally risk free though ? It concerns me we are not seeing all data mentioned from these as well as I am sure I have read stories regarding them and severe issues as well ?

@worriedatthemoment
www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/rare-blood-disorder-covid-vaccine-thrombocytopenia nb USA article about Moderna & Pfizer
Please note this is a VERY rare side effect - as pp have stated there is a greater risk in taking an aspirin the pill flying long distances blood clots in pregnancy after birth having hormones replacement after menopause ad infinitum - the thing is to know what the side effects are to lookout for & to ask advice & that this is incredibly rare - its not the vaccine its an autoimmune reaction to the vaccine & here's the thing! if you caught the disease you would be far more likely to get side effects (if this is diagnosed early enough it is unlikely to cause death which is why knowing its a rare but possible side effect is so important. Hospitals & doctors will now be aware & most of the cases of possible vaccine related are not mortal )

@TroubleUsedToBeMyBusiness but the choice for some time may be vaccine or no vaccine as uk doesn't currently have enough vaccine for all to have a choice and I would expect that is the same in other countries so people will have to wait and vaccine rollout will be a little slower
Hopefully soon even more vaccines get approved and we have even more choice but for now 17 million doses, plus some pfizer we may have is not enough to give all a choice other than choosing to wait

[quote TroubleUsedToBeMyBusiness]@EasterIssland
I doubt there has been much research to establish any specific risk factors re AZ . So until such a time as more research is done I think it is quite reasonable to let under 60s have a choice about whether they want AZ or another vaccine.[/quote]
The research has been done by MHRA and JCVI and they displayed why they have chosen 30 and not 60.

I've read that, it's never far from the front of my thinking at the moment.

BUT the EMA and MHRA speakers did cover sex (though they said gender and irritated me) and whilst absolute numbers had more women than men with any clotting issues that was because more women than men have been vaccinated, including more with AZ. The data is disaggregated, depending on where you look 55 - 65 ish% of all vaccinated are women.

There is solid eveidnce based on sex, age, etc. It isn't complete as the vaccination programme is not complete. But global data isn't insignificant across all age groups.

As for the pill, I didn't see the news this morning, I had enough yesterday! You can either accept that the type of clots being discussed are different form those caused by the pill, different mechanism. Or you can look at the stats and see theat the pill itself is a higher risk and that research is onoing - they have had about 6/8 weeks to look at this. They wil still be looking at the drilled down data. I wonder how many of the women who had AZ are on any specific contraception; how many of them have had any issues at all; how many have had clotting issues; how many were serious and died. Might be easy here in the UK, with free contraception through the NHS. But globally?

The baseline is that the risk of clotting after a vaccine, any vaccine, is really small.

Just in case anyone wants to see those graphs and read the RR data

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-what-is-the-blood-clot-risk-from-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-and-how-does-it-compare-12268572

[quote worriedatthemoment]@BuggerBognor you can have the choice but you will have to wait , no one is forcing you to have a vaccine at all
The simple facts are there are not enough doses of other vaccines at present to give a choice , that will change but not for some time so you will need to wait
Do you think the other vaccines are totally risk free though ? It concerns me we are not seeing all data mentioned from these as well as I am sure I have read stories regarding them and severe issues as well ? [/quote]
in the last few days some posters have put links here of problems related with j&j for example, EMA yesterday said they had seen 3 trombos with this vaccine.

@BuggerBognor well personally I doubt thats true otherwise how have some survived it ? They would of seeked treatment, I have never had an issue with 111 in my area but if I felt they were fobbing me off and with now what is known re : az if I had symptoms i would go straight to a & e
You should be putting a complaint in now though and also guess your dh knows that lvt are not totally reliable either and did you go for a pcr test to rule out covid too ?

[quote bumbleymummy]@CuriousaboutSamphire yes, I frequently think ‘oh good grief’ when the ‘granny killer’ lines get trotted out. Possibly time to put them to rest given that the data is showing that the vaccine is preventing severe disease and deaths in the older population and, iirc, uptake in over 70s is around 90%.[/quote]
I used it beacuse you seem to have imputed to me something I haven't said. You have misunderstood an exchange of posts that did not include you!

I have never used the 'granny killer' line!

It is you that relies on that data to suppport your own stance - of not having a vaccination!

[quote TroubleUsedToBeMyBusiness]@EasterIssland
I doubt there has been much research to establish any specific risk factors re AZ . So until such a time as more research is done I think it is quite reasonable to let under 60s have a choice about whether they want AZ or another vaccine.[/quote]
Pardon?

Did yesterday only happen in my head?

I am due my vaccine on Monday but dont know what one it will be. I'm 56 and wont take the AZ. If offered Pfizer I will take that. My gut tells me that at the moment I shouldn't trust the AZ until more is known. I am prepared to wait. An elderly female relative had AZ at the beginning of the year and has become extremely ill with body aches, unsteadiness and extreme shakes. Various doctors say just 'old age' but it came on really suddenly so I dont buy that. I have my suspicions. We have friends same age as us in France and they are to have AZ on Friday with no other vaccine available to them.