Vaccine passports and mask exemptions

[salmonskinjerky]

The language around the vaccine passport debate has been really shocking - dehumanising, completely unnuanced and very dangerous indeed. It seems like the majority of posters on MN would support vaccine passports for everyday activities and the posters who admit to not being keen on getting the vaccine are called selfish, a danger to others and told that they ought to live as hermits.

I remember when there were a lot of threads about mask exemptions and the overall consensus was that people who felt unable to wear masks for various reasons should be allowed to go about their business without challenge, despite the fact that they posed an additional risk to the health of the people around them. This is in spite of the fact that an unmasked person posed more of a risk to others in the time before anyone had the protection of a vaccine than an unvaccinated person would pose to a person who had been vaccinated. The view that many held was that a mask exempt person should not be questioned about their reasons for not wearing a mask. And that it would be discriminatory to not allow them into indoor public spaces.

I would like to hear from people who make a distinction between people who are mask exempt and people who are unvaccinated for various reasons and why the two should be treated differently.

@AcornAutumn Yes it kind of happened (I think David Blunkett was Home Sec), and then quietly disappeared after the 2010 election

www.bbc.co.uk/news/10164331

Time line of the ID card

@Crocidura

The ID card act was a Labour bit of legislation though - the tories / coalition repealed it as soon as they got in. BJ is famously libertarian, why would he abandon that to resurrect a Labour idea?

Times have moved on since then, also Boris has been bought out by the doogooders, we've seen that in recent months.

Little differentiates Labour and Conservatives now as well.

Little differentiates Labour and Conservatives now as well.

You think Boris Johnson is further left than David Cameron? I would disagree.

True that times have moved on - 911 was still recent in 2006. I don't think even David Blunkett would come up with ID cards now.

blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/04/01/clare-wenham-why-vaccine-passports-are-gendered/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_term=hootsuite&utm_content=sme&utm_campaign=usage

I can see that not everyone will be able to have a passport but I guess the govt feels it's important to open up as much as possible for as many people as possible? Better than keeping restrictions for everyone because some people are not yet protected?
(I am just assuming, I don't have any knowledge of govt thinking)

A very good day rate for encouraging asymptomatic testing. I think the summer will be about a test to get anywhere, or vax passport. findajob.dwp.gov.uk/details/5585948
At least the job post is honest about the manipulation going on 🤯

@Crocidura

I can see that not everyone will be able to have a passport but I guess the govt feels it's important to open up as much as possible for as many people as possible? Better than keeping restrictions for everyone because some people are not yet protected? (I am just assuming, I don't have any knowledge of govt thinking)

Seems very unfair on the millions of younger people that have suffered for more than a year for the good of others in society.

Anyone who has been in lock down should be allowed their freedom back, regardless of whether or not they consent to the new vaccines.

What kind of country have we become where people think this is okay?

@Crocidura

I can see that not everyone will be able to have a passport but I guess the govt feels it's important to open up as much as possible for as many people as possible? Better than keeping restrictions for everyone because some people are not yet protected? (I am just assuming, I don't have any knowledge of govt thinking)

Wait, why they didn't think of that at the beginning of pandemic when they locked up young healthy people to protect others?

@BelleHathor

*A very good day rate for encouraging asymptomatic testing. I think the summer will be about a test to get anywhere, or vax passport. findajob.dwp.gov.uk/details/5585948* At least the job post is honest about the manipulation going on 🤯

Yeah the dictator wasn't joking when he said he wanted 10 million tests per day in 2021 was he? All planned, regardless of the science or course of the pandemic.

Yeah the dictator wasn't joking when he said he wanted 10 million tests per day in 2021 was he? All planned, regardless of the science or course of the pandemic.
Funnily enough cases seemed to peak on January 20th 2021 after the WHO issued guidance for laboratories to reduce the number of cycles used during PCR testing......
www.who.int/news/item/20-01-2021-who-information-notice-for-ivd-users-2020-05

Wait, why they didn't think of that at the beginning of pandemic when they locked up young healthy people to protect others?

I don't know for sure but guess it's because they are trying to limit spread and young healthy people spread the virus more than vaccinated people do?

Anyone who has been in lock down should be allowed their freedom back, regardless of whether or not they consent to the new vaccines.

I am guessing these policies are to do with trying to avoid another wave / lockdown, rather than assessing who deserves to be allowed to do things.

I am guessing these policies are to do with trying to avoid another wave / lockdown, rather than assessing who deserves to be allowed to do things.

But then the whole vaccination strategy makes no sense if that was the case.

If it was about keeping cases low, why aren't police, supermarket staff, delivery drivers, teachers etc prioritised? They have 100x more contacts than somebody vulnerable who the gov could have paid to stay at home.

Instead it's been rightly about saving lives and stopping severe illness, hence why we have vaccinated with that in mind.

So as a police officer I could be in and out of houses all night and getting into situations where masks are useless.... but I couldn't go to a clothes shop.

It makes no sense.

Agree OP. My DM had the AZ vaccine and then a heart attack 12 hours later. Maybe related, maybe not. However, she is adamant she will not be having the second dose. What about her? Should she be forced inside because of it?

If it was about keeping cases low, why aren't police, supermarket staff, delivery drivers, teachers etc prioritised? They have 100x more contacts than somebody vulnerable who the gov could have paid to stay at home.

I think I would have chosen a different order for vaccination, seemed odd to me not to vaccinate teachers, police etc as a priority. Their argument was that they were trying to relieve pressure on the NHS, so vaccinating people in order of most likely to need medical intervention. (I think.)

Now that lots have people have been vaccinated I guess they are keen to reap the economic rewards by opening up as much as possible for those who are protected, rather than waiting until everyone has had two doses.

Quote

Seems very unfair on the millions of younger people that
have suffered for more than a year for the good of others in society.

Anyone who has been in lock down should be allowed their freedom back, regardless of whether or not they consent to the new vaccines.

What kind of country have we become where people think this is okay?

So, cue lots of young people with vodka and tonic in their drinking bottles meeting up in the park.
Where’s theres a will and all that.

Never any joined up thinking is there

@Crocidura I think he’s so far right he’s a fascist which is not far off the people who are so far left they are communists.

It’s like an old video game where you go off one side and appear back on the other.

@winched

I am guessing these policies are to do with trying to avoid another wave / lockdown, rather than assessing who deserves to be allowed to do things.

But then the whole vaccination strategy makes no sense if that was the case.

If it was about keeping cases low, why aren't police, supermarket staff, delivery drivers, teachers etc prioritised? They have 100x more contacts than somebody vulnerable who the gov could have paid to stay at home.

Instead it's been rightly about saving lives and stopping severe illness, hence why we have vaccinated with that in mind.

So as a police officer I could be in and out of houses all night and getting into situations where masks are useless.... but I couldn't go to a clothes shop.

It makes no sense.

Crocidura you should have a think. You don't seem to have any logic, just blind faith. This post is a good starting point.

I responded to that post.

Nobody has really answered my question about why the govt are talking about vaccine passports, if it's not the obvious (and laudable?) reason, protecting public health.

Someone suggested back door to ID cards, which I find hard to believe with this lot in charge, the most showily libertarian govt I can remember. Someone suggested "money" but hasn't elaborated on that. A couple of people have come up with arguments against passports, which seem easy to refute if public health is the motivation. I don't discount the possibility that BJ and his fellow twats are conning us all and have an evil plan, but I'd like to know what it is that people think they are up to.

Crocidura, it would give the govt a lot of control. Once they had it, it could be easily expanded to become basically a social credit system, along the lines of what is already being tried and pushed on China.

Why would that want that much control? I couldn't say, though not hard to make some guesses. Why have powerful, controlling people and systems ever existed? The fundamental reasons don't change, like human nature doesn't change.

What I do know, what we've all seen, is that, once a govt gets a new power, no matter how temporary they say it will be, they always have plenty of reasons why they actually never give it up.

What sort of control would it give and how would that be exercised and used for?

I think this is a terrible idea that's only going to cause division. It's sad to see only 70 (?) MPs opposing it so far. It's essentially enforced vaccination by coercion, when the government should be concentrating on encouraging voluntary take up to protect the community and health service.

It's just going to cause further vaccine scepticism, not impel people to have it, because of the very real possibility this passport could be expanded to cover other areas of life, as previous posters have said. That's what really worries me about it to be honest - the idea of our health data being stored centrally (probably managed by a private company) and that data allowing or preventing us from taking part in society. They could extend it to cover other diseases, behaviours, etc.

@Crocidura

I responded to that post.

Nobody has really answered my question about why the govt are talking about vaccine passports, if it's not the obvious (and laudable?) reason, protecting public health.

Someone suggested back door to ID cards, which I find hard to believe with this lot in charge, the most showily libertarian govt I can remember. Someone suggested "money" but hasn't elaborated on that. A couple of people have come up with arguments against passports, which seem easy to refute if public health is the motivation. I don't discount the possibility that BJ and his fellow twats are conning us all and have an evil plan, but I'd like to know what it is that people think they are up to.

Non-essential shops and pubs (outdoors) can open in a couple of weeks. Pubs can have punters indoors in May. The passports are predicted to come in when every adult has been offered the vaccine... which is June/July. The time between being offered and actually having the jab could be another couple of months. So in that time, passports wont be required... but when that last 18 year old walks out the vaccine centre, the pubs and shops will shut their doors to anyone who has not had the vaccine even though they will have been accepting them for several months anyway. So, not about public health, but about money.