EU threaten to cut off vaccine supply to the UK 3

[EasterIssland]

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4200959-EU-threaten-to-cut-off-vaccine-supply-to-the-UK-2?pg=1

quentin you are only on your 70s in Spain, that is not ideal at all. I am assuming the country is relying on tourism reopening this year, next month in fact and that lives the elderly - and in fact the whole country at real risk of a third wave before you even get to the peak summer months.

Slow vaccines in tourism based countries is a problem.
It is mainly people in their 70s etc that are becoming very ill

I've come to think we were lucky in Denmark that the English variant swiftly became dominant during our second wave

^this. The new variants are a whole new ballgame.

*leaves

Well Australia were buying vaccines not nuclear weapons and are not being punished by economic sanctions. Nor have they been accused of industrial espionage etc.

I thought you were going to come up with some viable examples rather than us not selling things to dictatorships

Measures to manage external security threats by preventing inward or outward trade are not the same as retaining a product for a country's own use. In modern democracies that's only occurred to my knowledge with PPE and drugs during this pandemic; plenty of examples there; France seized UK NHS masks, Germany refused all PPE exports to Italy, India put a stop on paracetamol exports.

It's quite easy not to agree with it, because we in the UK aren't a net exporter of drugs nor PPE, so we would only get negative effects. It's been a hard lesson to learn, but retention of significant supply stocks and ability to ramp up manufacturing quickly are both clearly required for this and future pandemics. Different security strategies for different countries, the same way there are different approaches to other security matters.

I think it's more that if you're going to do it everyone knows that's what you're doing and you need to own it not blame private companies. Trying to tell Australia it's AZs fault that the EU HAS blocked their property being exported to them is disingenuous to say the least and just makes them look dishonest on top of everything else.

The point is that doing this is a big line in the sand that has been crossed. That's why there's three threads - it's a big bloody deal in a world of global trade and supply chains and EU has crossed a major line and there will be repercussions for everyone. Yes, part of that will be stockpiling and greater nationalism for those able and less trust in trade agreements. Which I think even EU staunch defenders can see is a bit of an ideological contradiction for the EU?

I think one thing I'm seeing, which I always felt but is now being writ large, is that the EU as in the centralised overarching EU has little in common with the nations it supposedly represents and is far too separate from the elected governments of those nations.

An EU whose leadership was made up of each of the priministers/presidents etc sitting down and having talks would be very different to an EU run by a separate entity. Somehow it would be less organised and officious yet more flexible and representative.

Amazingly, @Itsalonghaul , they want to keep children at school more than they want tourists. Beautiful holiday country though this is, it does have other sectors to keep in work. There’s no date on widespread tourism reopening yet, what have you heard? My parents will be on the first plane in!

The frail and elderly are done, the front line are done, there are 11 weeks until the end of term to get through the 65-80 group whilst simultaneously working on the under 65s with AZ. (in fact I think the target is over 45s). I don’t expect my 34 yr old Dh to be done by the summer but he’s not particularly at risk or bothered.

I get what you’re saying about the next wave, 79% of cases in my region are now of the variant first identified in Kent, and I saw the impact it had on Britain (it killed my aunt) but I’m optimistic that it’s arrival here won’t have such a horrible impact on deaths (although the positives will surely rise) as the very vulnerable are already vaccinated - although Spain is behind the UK on vaccines, it’s ahead of where the uk was when that variant really took hold there. I’m sure some people will hope I’m wrong.

@MRex I thought the uk had restricted exports is that different?

My issues are more with the commission and the actual form the EU has taken rather than the principles of nations working together. I think the lines on which we work together or go our own way need to be fluid and ever negotiated though and pretending there can be unity between 27 member states is a farce and can only end up with a power imbalance that serves some whilst making beggars of others. Ever closer imo would mean ever more privileged and ever more beggarly respectively.

In simplistic terms having worked in institutions I also believe the more layers of authority you put in the more money is squandered and misdirected away from the stakeholders for little to no gain in efficiency or effectiveness.

My reasons are pretty basic, fundamental principles about where power should sit and how best diverse needs and wants can be served rather than the racism, xenophobia or lack of education or 'old'ness that is commonly levelled at people for not agreeing with the EUs ever closer agenda.

there are 11 weeks until the end of term to get through the 65-80 group

Surely you'd concede that that is not great though? I understand your point that it's 'not as bad as is maybe being made out by some press outlets in the UK' but it's not good is it? My parents are mid 70's and have both had both jabs with 12weeks in between thank god. I'd be worried sick if they were still without any jabs and being told it could be nearly 3 months till they get one.

I don’t really understand your point @TheHoneyBadger ? It would of course be great if they vaccinated everyone today and that was the end of it.

Btw - the 12 week gap on Spain at least is still just for AZ - Pfizer and moderna are shorter and so the over 65s will end up being fully vaccinated early than those of us with AZ. My second AZ is in June whereas my friends mum (79 - Pfizer) has her next appointment end of this month.

The PM said yesterday that they are on track to meet the original target of 70% of population vaccinated (both doses) by end of August and I’m fine with that, it meets the expectations they originally set out. Isn’t the UK target to have offered all adults the first dose by June? So presumably all adults fully done by August too. About 80% of Spain population are adults. Hardly the pearl clutching difference you’d assume from this thread.

[quote QuentininQuarantino]@MRex I thought the uk had restricted exports is that different?[/quote]
Those restrictions are on exporting drugs that aren't manufactured in this country but have been secured or specifically bought in for NHS use by NHS and private hospitals based on demand projections. You could consider it to be much the same thing, but controls are usually of most concern to other countries at the point of leaving the manufacturer rather than (possibly fraudulent) onward sale.

It's clearly excellent news that the rollout across the EU is speeding up. Inspite of what has been suggested here, I don't think anyone posting on this thread wants the rollout to fail or more cases/deaths anywhere.

However, even if the EU and the UK do reach the end point of vaccinating their whole population at the same time, where in the vaccination window those doses occurred is important. The earlier the vulnerable are vaccinated the sooner they are protected. So, whilst it's good that the EU vaccination programme is speeding up, the sluggish start has still lead to regrettable deaths.

It appears that they are running out of vaccines in some areas however, my aunt (90 years old) in Beluno near Venice was due her second jab this week. Received a call yesterday to say they have run out and not sure when getting next delivery but would be in touch. I'm hoping it's just a local hiccup, she's an indomitable character, and is not happy!

I don't mean in comparison to the UK or the political stuff Quentin just that given vaccines have been available since December the over 70s potentially not receiving one till July is not great is it? Spain is hardly some backwater place with no trade relations or a currency that is too weak to secure trade.

My Mum is 73, no health conditions despite her not quite endearing hypochondria but had 2 doses of pfizer already by the end of March. That's a success worth appreciating and it doesn't seem right that her peers in Spain (where she usually spends November and part of December each year) may be waiting another 11 weeks for their first dose. Politics around Brexit aside surely you'd agree something has gone wrong there?

Evidence (surprisingly to me because hands up I thought changing the gap between doses was outrageous and a terrible idea) seems to be stacking up in favour of getting in first doses and that having a decent protective effect. I'm not a tory, can't stand Boris and have been a pretty loud critic of how this government have handled Covid but I can acknowledge vaccination wise we've by luck or judgement done well and in real terms that means that my parents are hopefully a lot safer than they could have been.

I’m sorry I wasn’t clearer - the Spanish govt figure is 70-% total population BOTH doses by end of August (what they’re saying at least - who knows if it will happen), not only the first dose.

(The 11 week number was mine - I’m saying that there are 11 weeks until schools break up and holidays start and people start moving about and tourists come in, which hopefully is enough time to do the more vulnerable people who are left in and hopefully not have to close schools as France has just had to).

Spanish reporting doesn’t seem to count people until both vaccines have been given so hopefully, being optimistic, the first dose protection will make an earlier impact.

Who knows. AZ has just been paused again in one region of Spain... argh 😖

I see, thanks for clarifying. I read it as they were saying another 11 weeks to aim for all elderly being vaccinated.

Spain did a hard first lockdown as I recall which probably helped a lot. I hope things pan out ok and you don’t have a big wave like we had over winter

Sorry, and thank you! Spain isn’t hugely relevant anyway but it’s often useful to know that the EU isn’t just France and/or Germany!

Just hope I can get AZ number 2 after today’s setback. I’m dying to see my mum (in uk!) and have an inkling being fully jabbed will make it easier...

Spain is relevant! If you say that imagine how eg. Hungary feel. France and Germany are just 2/27th of relevance to my mind

@QuentininQuarantino

Sorry, and thank you! Spain isn’t hugely relevant anyway but it’s often useful to know that the EU isn’t just France and/or Germany!

Just hope I can get AZ number 2 after today’s setback. I’m dying to see my mum (in uk!) and have an inkling being fully jabbed will make it easier...

You should be able to. Spain ans any other countries want to finish their vaccination programme. If Spain refuses az then the plan we’ve spoken about before wouldn’t work as it’s on of the main ones currently. I think they might recommend like here for second doses have it unless history of trombos and so which I hope you don’t have.

Thank you @EasterIssland I hope so but Castilla y León paused it today so I’m a little nervous..

Yeah saw about c&l but read it was until an statement from ema

Oh @EasterIssland it seems they won’t be giving second doses to under 60s now! It’s so frustrating.They’ve said either mixing a vaccine or just leaving with the one dose. I’d be fine with just the one dose actually as long as it counted towards the vaccine passport. (Before anyone starts I’m frustrated with spain’s lack of clarity, not the EU who recommended to continue it. In fact the EU tried to get a coordinated response because all countries are doing contradictory things but the countries refused).

The positive I guess is that it might speed up the 60-65 year olds who are now the only people authorized to have AZ in Spain.

I know @QuentininQuarantino and I thought the same thing. It’s such a mess with each country doing different things ... at the end you don’t know who to trust. The mix thing is not still clear as the results aren’t out. The countries I’ve checked all require both doses of az... would they do an exception on Spanish if the rest of Europe are providing both doses (Italy has said they’ll do both doses) Is the immunity of 1 so good that you only require 1? For how long ? I think it’s a bit of a risk ... in order to save a few lives ... you might get higher cases for the lack of the second dose on youngest.

The good news is that it might be approved for 65-69. My dad is 66 so he might be able to get it now sooner

I lived on a Spanish island for ten years Quentin and it is fully reliant on tourism, as is much of Spain if you look at the GDP figures.

Keeping the infection under control is crucial, so no I am not sure vaccinating cafe workers was a priority as they are less likely to be seriously ill or die, and need extensive hospital treatment.

Spain have yet to experience the third wave, and as such needs to vaccinate as quickly as possible - which I am sure they are doing - as they say from the latest update they fully intending to reopen for the summer tourist season, and with all of those holiday makers from some heavily infected parts of Europe comes with it a huge gamble and risk for Spain. To say otherwise is wishful thinking.

Friends of mine in their 40s in my old town are not rating their chances of getting a vaccine before the autumn, at the current rate and both have elderly parents yet to be vaccinated. It looks patchy depending on area.