Can we please stop saying the vaccine does not reduce transmission?

[Frequentflier]

It does. Plenty of evidence now out which everyone can find for themselves. edition.cnn.com/2021/03/29/health/pfizer-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-work-wellness/index.html

It is up to you to not take the vaccine if you don't want to. But please stop dressing it up as an unselfish choice if you have no conditions that stop you from taking it.

People don’t like ‘whataboutery’ because it de-rails the thread and usually has little or nothing to do with the matter in hand. For example ‘people should get vaccinated for the good of mankind’ but ‘what about the planet, it’s dying? and people are already dying of other things like cancer, what about them?! That kind of shizzle.

@bumbleymummy bit that already happens with lots of vaccines and has historically in an attempt to preserve life.

I’m not scared of the vaccine, I’m just not scared of contracting covid. I don’t usually vaccinate myself against things that are incredibly low risk

That’s great, I did say the majority not all. But I think your post is an example of what drives the “selfish” comments, because vaccines have a wider societal impact., however anti vaxxers take your approach and only focus on the self.

[quote Poorlykitten]Here’s a great article on immunity after vaccines for those struggling with the concept @bumbleymummy
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.firstpost.com/health/why-you-should-get-a-covid-19-vaccine-even-after-youve-recovered-from-coronavirus-9476841.html/amp[/quote]
@Poorlykitten I’m not struggling with the concept at all. I get my information from the papers that have been written on the subject. I usually link to them as well. Thanks anyway though 😊

[quote Heathermary1995]@Belladonna12 " one in 500 have died of covid in the Uk"

No they havent, 700,000 each year die in the Uk every year and each one of those where covid was suspected ( not even confirmed) was a covid death with an average age above life expectancy. If 700,000 die every year, a huge percentage of those may have flu, they may have a cold, it doesnt mean they have died from it yet anyone with covid even when just a "contributing factor" is registered as a covid death . Throw in deaths where someone died within 28 days of testing positive of covid who died of something else but due to legislation got registered as a " covid death" and those figures aren't accurate

Here is the actual clause the ONS use

This number is different from the count of deaths published on the GOV.UK website because of different reporting methods and timing: Office for National Statistics (ONS) weekly deaths figures are based on deaths registered in the stated week, and we have counted all deaths where COVID-19 was mentioned on the death certificate as “deaths involving COVID-19”; the GOV.UK figures are based on deaths occurring to date, among hospital patients who have tested positive for COVID-19, and include deaths that have not yet been registered.

‘Because of the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, our regular weekly deaths release now provides a separate breakdown of the numbers of deaths involving COVID-19. That is, where COVID-19 or suspected COVID-19 was mentioned anywhere on the death certificate, including in combination with other health conditions. If a death mentions COVID-19, it will not always be the main cause of death, it will sometimes be a contributary

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending20march2020
.[/quote]
I didn't take the figure from the ONS statistics. I took it from the worldometer data which only includes deaths within 28 days of Covid positive test. At the moment this is 1,815 per million which is about one in 500 people. It is true that some of those people covid was onlu a contributary factor but that doesn't mean the number is an overestimate. It's more likely to be an underestimate as it doesn't include those people who died of Covid more than 28 days after testing positive. Some people with Covid survive more than 28 days and then die especially younger people .The figure also doesn't include those people who died of Covid but either weren't tested for Covid or the test results hadn't come back at the time of death .That happened to one of my relatives (the positive result came back after she died) and Covid therefore wasn't registered either in the stats or on death certificate.

Ummmm... who on Earth reported my post and why was it deleted? We’re not allowed to point out that young/healthy people are at incredibly low risk now? Even though it can be backed up by statistics? That some people, like myself, aren’t afraid of contracting it? Wow. Nice censorship MNHQ

Recent article which if correct would mean that far more people have had covid than recorded.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/health/most-with-covid-symptoms-do-not-get-tested-or-isolate-study-b927417.html%3famp

Er Bluntness, the analogy is between entering into a contract and being vaccinated. Not between reading posts on Mumsnet and having a jab. Clear, now?

@bumbleymummy

Ummmm... who on Earth reported my post and why was it deleted? We’re not allowed to point out that young/healthy people are at incredibly low risk now? Even though it can be backed up by statistics? That some people, like myself, aren’t afraid of contracting it? Wow. Nice censorship MNHQ

The censorship on this and other sites is what’s causing the mistrust. People cannot make informed decisions without all of the information and proper debate and normally decide to wait until it’s available.

I’ve seen some shocking misinformation on these threads but provide its in the pro camp it stays.

@Bluntness100

I’m not scared of the vaccine, I’m just not scared of contracting covid. I don’t usually vaccinate myself against things that are incredibly low risk

That’s great, I did say the majority not all. But I think your post is an example of what drives the “selfish” comments, because vaccines have a wider societal impact., however anti vaxxers take your approach and only focus on the self.

Actually we vaccinate against most things because they are a risk to us primarily. Yes, there is the added bonus of the ‘greater good’ but that isn’t the first and foremost reason. In this situation, for younger age groups with no underlying conditions, the risk of covid is incredibly small. So you are asking people to vaccinate themselves against something that they may already be immune to or that they could contract and recover from and also contribute to herd immunity.

(I’m going to link to a study showing CFR by age here in case someone tries to get me deleted again for stating a fact about it being low risk to younger groups.)

gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/5/9/e003094.full.pdf

I am shocked that my two posts has been deleted - clearly MNHQ is trying to drive the discussion by doubling down on sarcasm and deleting FACTS.

CovidOfAllHumanity: From the you.gov, website, up to March 14th 13.7 doses of AZ have been administered and 12.2 of Pfizer. So the maths doesn't stack up. You can't claim that the adverse reactions are due to disproportionate number of AZ been given.

*have

@bumbleymummy. I don’t disagree that often that the primary reason, but to wipe out the virus is a strong second.

The facts remain, the unvaccinated are significantly more at risk of catching Covid and getting severely ill or dying, or transmitting it to someone they know and it having that impact than they are of getting ill from the vaccine. By not getting it you aid the continued spread of it in society and you put yourself and others near you at risk. A large percentage of people don’t have any symptoms and are contagious. With the vaccine program this is likely to increase hugely.

You may be low risk, but you are at risk, as are those around you. And it’s likely your risk is increasing the more society opens up and the more people are vaccinated, and yes it could be you or yours. It is statistically significantly more likely than getting ill from the vaccine.

pelvic I hope there isn’t mass deleting of posts as MN is usually sensible in terms of freedom of speech.

When a debate is shut down, people become more suspicious and not less.

the unvaccinated are significantly more at risk of catching Covid and getting severely ill or dying,

Actually, the currently unvaccinated are the ones least likely to contract covid severely and die. That’s why the JCVI prioritised certain groups above others. The people most likely to get severely ill and die have been vaccinated.

The vast majority of COVID cases, as stated by Whitty, are mild/asymptomatic (around 80%) Immunity after infection also confers immunity so people are still contributing to herd immunity and the ‘greater good’.

We are not going to ‘wipe out’ the virus btw. It’s already been accepted that it will become endemic.

@Belladonna12

Nothing in your statement is factually correct

Including deaths within 28 days of a positive covid test is like including all deaths of people who have had a cold iwithin 28s days- useless information. 95 year old edith who has cancer in multiple body parts expected to die summer 2020 that dies xmas 2020 with covid in her system which millions of people have has not died of covid!

As far as " all the young people dying of covid ".. there are so many times people can keep posting the age demographics of covid deaths before you realise some people will never absorb them and keep posting the same things

CovidOfAllHumanity: From the you.gov, website, up to March 14th 13.7 doses of AZ have been administered and 12.2 of Pfizer. So the maths doesn't stack up. You can't claim that the adverse reactions are due to disproportionate number of AZ been given.

PFT you do seem very desperate to get me to reply to you

You have conveniently ignored the 2nd half of my post and my subsequent one so here they are again

1. Even if the dose numbers are the same the populations that AZ and Pfizer were given to in the U.K. were radically different. Pfizer was largely given to young healthy healthcare professionals because of the cold storage issues with transporting it. AZ was given to older people in nursing homes and housebound.

The fact that there are more yellow card reports for AZ is therefore very likely to be due to the different populations vaccinated as elderly people would be more likely to have coincidental illnesses than younger people

1. Your second comparison upthread where you compared 840 deaths after having AZ with the rate of death from COVID in under 40s is so staggeringly statistically inept that either you are very stupid or you are posting in bad faith and it deserves to be deleted for being so misleading.

Deaths after having a vaccine are not DUE to having a vaccine. The chances of a frail elderly person in a care home dying are pretty high at any time
Deaths recorded on a death certificate as being due to Covid are DUE to Covid in the opinion of a Dr
(You will now say there were a high proportion where a Dr thought being run over by a bus was COVID related- save your breath. This is also a really stupid argument).

In addition you were comparing 840 deaths in a total population vaccinated consisting largely of elderly people to deaths from Covid specifically in under 40s. Quite clear this is a very unfair and stupid comparison and anyone with half a brain could surely see that so I have to assume your intention is to mislead

[quote Heathermary1995]@Belladonna12

Nothing in your statement is factually correct

Including deaths within 28 days of a positive covid test is like including all deaths of people who have had a cold iwithin 28s days- useless information. 95 year old edith who has cancer in multiple body parts expected to die summer 2020 that dies xmas 2020 with covid in her system which millions of people have has not died of covid!

As far as " all the young people dying of covid ".. there are so many times people can keep posting the age demographics of covid deaths before you realise some people will never absorb them and keep posting the same things[/quote]
Which part of my statement is incorrect ? If you think the data on numbers dying within 28 days of testing positive for Covid shouldn't be used in the official stats on Covid deaths perhaps you should take it up with all the scientists and medics who advise the government to do that as you clearly are so much more clever.

Whilst clearly those numbers will include some people who would have died of another disease very soon anyway it doesn't mean it's an overestimate of the total numbers who have died of Covid as some people are in hospital for more than 28 days with Covid and then die. Some people died of Covid without being tested for Covid too, particularly early on in the pandemic.

"If you think the data on numbers dying within 28 days of testing positive for Covid shouldn't be used in the official stats on Covid deaths perhaps you should take it up with all the scientists and medics who advise the government to do that as you clearly are so much more clever"

Not all governments use the 28 day test now do they which is why India which has 20 times the number of people that the UK has .. you know that renowned country for hand hygiene and social distancing hasn't 20 times our number of deaths- infect they are very similar despite there being 1.4 billion people there compared to 68 million in the Uk. South Africa has less than half the number of deaths with a similar population density, why do you think that is?

"Whilst clearly those numbers will include some people who would have died of another disease very soon anyway it doesn't mean it's an overestimate

@Heathermary1995

"If you think the data on numbers dying within 28 days of testing positive for Covid shouldn't be used in the official stats on Covid deaths perhaps you should take it up with all the scientists and medics who advise the government to do that as you clearly are so much more clever"

Not all governments use the 28 day test now do they which is why India which has 20 times the number of people that the UK has .. you know that renowned country for hand hygiene and social distancing hasn't 20 times our number of deaths- infect they are very similar despite there being 1.4 billion people there compared to 68 million in the Uk. South Africa has less than half the number of deaths with a similar population density, why do you think that is?

It's well established that the number of deaths has been very much underestimated in some countries.

@Heathermary1995

"Whilst clearly those numbers will include some people who would have died of another disease very soon anyway it doesn't mean it's an overestimate

I'm not sure why that's confusing to you. If you only include people who have died within 28 days you may be underestimating the number who have died because of covid because some people with Covid take longer than 28 days to die. Is that not obvious?

The thing is we don't need a bunch of amateur scientists with an agenda to trawl through yellow card reports for a gotcha moment that somehow no one else but them and their amazing Google skills can figure out

Because clinical trials were done!
With placebo control and randomisation precisely to even out bias from different populations and to ensure that the benefits outweigh the risks for all age groups studied or the vaccine would not be approved by regulators for that age group.

You are not going to find reliably that the risks outweigh the benefits for any age group that a vaccine is licensed for because the MHRA have already done that and concluded that the opposite is true.

But someone did post last night that they thought a bunch of Mumsnetters might be more likely to be right than the MHRA. If you are that dumb and paranoid then there will be no convincing you I guess.

I am from India. I am not sure about the method of reporting, but I think the low number of deaths is due mostly to the fact that it is a very young country. Median age only 25 and I think the UK's is 40. No care homes as most people are taken care of by their own families and hence less spread.There is also some serious under reporting, I would imagine.

Also the second wave has now hit India and cases are absolutely rocketing, hence why the govt has now paused exporting vaccines and is ramping up the vaccine programme to the over 45s. They have already vaccinated a population equal to France and everybody above 45 in my own family has got the vaccine.