Can we please stop saying the vaccine does not reduce transmission?

[Frequentflier]

It does. Plenty of evidence now out which everyone can find for themselves. edition.cnn.com/2021/03/29/health/pfizer-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-work-wellness/index.html

It is up to you to not take the vaccine if you don't want to. But please stop dressing it up as an unselfish choice if you have no conditions that stop you from taking it.

They do have risk calculators. A 55yo woman with asthma and coronary heart disease has a 0.0058% risk of death and a 0.062 chance of hospital admission. Reduce that by 80% if they are vaccinated (which they should be.

You think there is a 0.062% chance of hospital admission if they catch Covid? That would mean that if 100,000 women aged 55 caught it only 62 would be hospitalised. I'm not sure what risk calculator you used but but I think you have misinterpreted.

@winched

Your anecdotal evidence means nothing, other than you are fortunate in your circle of friends and family.

That is exactly the reason why I said it, to show the pointlessness of pps "I know loads of over 50s hospitalised so the vast majority of over 50s are at high risk" !!! I thought that was pretty obvious considering my very next line was but what is the point in talking about the people we know?

Fucking eyeroll.

That's why I refused to enter into futile comparisons. I don't see why you did, you could have made your point without doing that.

No need for rudeness, it doesn't help your argument.

[quote millenialblush]@belladonna12 the vaccine contains Polysorbate 80, which can cause blood clots.[/quote]
25 cases out of 30 million, I believe.

We seem to know an awful lot about a new rushed vaccine. Amazing how we know the long term benefits after, about 8 weeks isn't it.
Those wanting the vaccine will have it, heard immunity will be reached without calling those not taking it selfish,. Plenty people won't have it due to medical reasons, are they selfish still going about their business as they could catch and spread it too.

See this is why I am constantly on this thread. It is NOT a "rushed vaccine". People are free to see that as hysterical. But about time this misinformation was called out.

@XenoBitch

Have the vaccine, don't have the vaccine... just don't be an ass to people who are doing differently to you. Rather than belittle people, or call them selfish, maybe try to allay any fears they might have. No one changes their mind because they were called names. The way this pandemic and lockdown have divided people is scary and incredibly sad.

Couldn't agree more!

Covid has been a constant judgement of people, from day 1. And sadly the vaccine programme is no different. People are getting criticised for having the vaccine - "why are you getting it before me?" People are being criticised for not getting it - "why are you being so selfish?" I don't tell anyone I don't want to if I have been vaccinated or not. It's really none of their business.

The vaccine programme seems to have had a massive take up rate, that's great news.

Frequentflier

The argument of those on this thread is they believe they should be protected at all costs by eliminating any risk. Even if the vaccine is currently showing a minute risk it’s still a risk so essentially people want others to take a risk they may not wish to take to protect them from a risk?

@Belladonna12 I used the Qcovid risk calculator, developed by the University of Oxford and used by the NHS.

If they are wrong then blame the University of Oxford and question why the NHS are using it.

www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/coronavirus-and-your-health/how-to-find-out-your-risk-when-it-comes-to-coronavirus

In their example they use 10,000 with the same risk factors (I added asthma and coronary heart disease) 1 is likely to catch and die from covid and 6 are likely to be hospitalised.

@Frequentflier

See this is why I am constantly on this thread. It is NOT a "rushed vaccine". People are free to see that as hysterical. But about time this misinformation was called out.

My apologies, why don't we have so many more vaccines then if it only takes a couple of months. See you can't believe a word you are told. Ten years is what we are led to believe for vacines to be developed, tested and after many trials deemed safe. They are still at trial but people happily having any old shite pumped into them, it's scary really. As for the long term effects and the ability for transmission, very early ys for conclusions/ propaganda.

Considering everyone over 50 plus those with underlying conditions have quite a high risk of severe Covid I'm not sure even the majority of the population let alone the "vast majority" could be considered "not at high risk".

You know that it’s mild/asymptomatic in around 80% of cases?

The myth of the "rushed vaccine" has been discussed here and elsewhere and only requires a quick Google. Ten years is not a figure set in stone when work on these vaccines has been going on since SARS.

Yes, but you are the gineau pigs, and plenty people are waiting to have their jab.
Why do you think that some Black and ethnic minorities won't have it?
No amount of discussing on here and elsewhere will make us be the gineau pigs again, your turn.
We'll wait and see how it works for you, first.

I am ethnic. I am at a higher risk of dying from Covid, as is my husband, and we have both had it for exactly that reason. Do wait and see how it works for me:) I can see that no amount of discussion will work, yes.

Ten years is the normal time, because that's how long it takes to get the funding, permission for the trials, volunteers, manufacture, etc etc. Most of it is waiting time. One thing is done, wait ages. Do another thing. Wait ages. Do the next bit. Wait some more. That has been eliminated by throwing money and time at it. There could be loads more vaccines if we did that for other diseases, yes. Other vaccines don't go through more trials. They are just spread out over a long time until they get to the same number of participants - for practical reasons, not because there is anything that changes over time. The side effects show up with the number of people, so these vaccines have undergone as many trials as the others - there's nothing more experimental about them than others. They also have been working on versions of them for some time, so ramping up the research to focus on this specific virus wasn't that much of a change. There won't be delayed reaction effects years down the line in either case, whether parallel trials or sequential, because that's not how vaccines work. The vaccine is gone from your body in a very short time. People aren't having 'any old shite' pumped into them; it's very clear what the vaccine is (and isn't).

@frequentflier it may not be rushed, but the trials haven't finished and they dont until 2023, which means the people who receive the vaccine are being tested on, it is still in its experimental phase. I believe if you want to have it then absolutely go ahead, do as you wish. But if people dont want to have it then leave them be, every single person, at this point in time, has the right to informed consent and medical freedom.

But just because the trials are still ongoing ,it doesn't mean that there is anything experimental about the vaccines now. They have to continue to collect data on immunity, and how it changes over time. They have to see how it's working against variants. They have to see what sort of virus shedding people who do contract it produce, to see what sort of transmission there is. They have to see if there are greater or lesser effects across the age groups. They might want to work out why it doesn't work as well for some people. They need to work out what further boosters will do. None of that will affect whether it is a safe vaccine or basically effective across all the participants. But for completeness and to answer further questions, the trials will continue. They probably do for all vaccines - research isn't just a 'do the experiment and come up with a final conclusion at the end of 3 years' sort of thing.

I'm not in favour of forced vaccines. But I am in favour of continually trying to give further information to those who are making a decision based on incomplete knowledge or incorrect assumptions, because it does benefit everyone if people choose to have it. The end of the pandemic and the overall recovery of the country will be much faster, so just leaving people be and not trying to change their minds, will mean everyone suffers for longer.

@CappuccinoCounter

But just because the trials are still ongoing ,it doesn't mean that there is anything experimental about the vaccines now. They have to continue to collect data on immunity, and how it changes over time. They have to see how it's working against variants. They have to see what sort of virus shedding people who do contract it produce, to see what sort of transmission there is. They have to see if there are greater or lesser effects across the age groups. They might want to work out why it doesn't work as well for some people. They need to work out what further boosters will do. None of that will affect whether it is a safe vaccine or basically effective across all the participants. But for completeness and to answer further questions, the trials will continue. They probably do for all vaccines - research isn't just a 'do the experiment and come up with a final conclusion at the end of 3 years' sort of thing.

I'm not in favour of forced vaccines. But I am in favour of continually trying to give further information to those who are making a decision based on incomplete knowledge or incorrect assumptions, because it does benefit everyone if people choose to have it. The end of the pandemic and the overall recovery of the country will be much faster, so just leaving people be and not trying to change their minds, will mean everyone suffers for longer.

There's a lot of have to see's in your post.

That is the whole job of scientists. They will do that forever - science is never finished.

@Belladonna12 most over 50s that catch covid are completely asymptomatic or it's so mild they don't know they have it.

At the end of 2020 out of a country of nearly 70 million after two waves of covid, 388 people under the age of 60 died of covid with no underlying health conditions. A tragedy for those that died, but bearing in mind around 700,000 die every year in the Uk of all causes it's hardly the black death is it.

A quick mention regarding the flu deaths.. are people honestly suggesting that flu has been miraculously wiped out in the Uk with social distancing ( have you tried going in supermarkets recently) yet covid hasn't? If a patient is in hospital with flu/pneumonia and like millions has covid which for the vast majority is asymptomatic, guess which one goes on the death certificate. A 95 year old that is terminally ill that has exceeded their expected prognosis of life who has covid in their system has not died of covid but it is registered as a covid death. A 35 year old who tests positive for covid and gets run over by a HGV has not died of covid despite testing positive less than 28 days earlier. The thousands who would normally have succumbed to flu who had covid in their system where flu has mysteriously vanished have not died " of covid". Why do people think India with a population of 1.4 billion which is around 20 times that of the Uk has a similar number of deaths to the Uk and not 20 times that number if it wasn't down to differences in how each specific country records death?

@cappuccinocounter what you're describing is literally an experiment. An ongoing experiment. If low risk, healthy young people dont want to be a part of that then they are well within their rights to refuse. The choice doesnt have to be lockdowns vs vaccines, the fact is that the young and healthy wont be at risk of death or over burdening the NHS if they get Covid.

[quote millenialblush]@cappuccinocounter what you're describing is literally an experiment. An ongoing experiment. If low risk, healthy young people dont want to be a part of that then they are well within their rights to refuse. The choice doesnt have to be lockdowns vs vaccines, the fact is that the young and healthy wont be at risk of death or over burdening the NHS if they get Covid.[/quote]
The vaccines are based on years of science and research, they haven't just appeared overnight. The vaccination programme in the this country started in the 1940s and is known for it's safety and efficacy. So hardly experimental. I'm guessing you have had the other vaccines available to you? The biggest problem with the Covid Vaccine, is the rubbish spouted on social media, which for some reason people choose to believe.

In order to rid the country of further illness and lockdowns, as many people as possible should have the vaccine. This will also guard against rogue variants appearing that the vaccine is not effective against.

Everything is subject to research - everything can be researched, even the most common drugs that you take all the time will be be undergoing further research at times. It doesn't mean they are still experimental, in the way the general public thinks of it.

And yes, people are free to refuse; I am not in favour of forced vaccinations. They will be slowing the progress of the country and economy in its recovery, but I still don't think they should be forced to have the vaccine. It doesn't mean that I don't think they should be continually given information about it and encouraged to understand better than they do. None of us want to continue like this longer than necessary, and understand how the more people that are vaccinated, the more chance there is of avoiding vaccine escape, further virus spread, the impacts of long covid, the social impacts of both lockdowns and losing wider family on young people, further lockdowns hindering the economic recovery, etc. So people have the right to refuse to take vaccines, but the rest of the country also has the right to keep telling them how important it is and how much it could matter.

@druidlookingidiot I was referring to the PP saying they weren't experimental and then going onto describe an experiment.

I haven't been fed any false information, I do not want to take the vaccine as I am not at risk (the data on covid tells us that, not social media) and I do not agree with the ethics of how we have got to this and where it is going. People were labelled conspiracy theorists for suggesting this pandemic would be a campaign of fear by the government and lead to mandatory vaccines and being digitally tracked/segregated/discriminated by your medical records, and look where we are.

So people have the right to refuse to take vaccines, but the rest of the country also has the right to keep telling them how important it is and how much it could matter

That wont do a jot for the reason I wont be having it... harassing me etc will make things worse!

Ten years is what we are led to believe for vaccines to be developed, tested and after many trials deemed safe

I absolutely can't believe you are saying this. This particular issue has been discussed and explained extensively. But I'll give it a go, seeing as how you missed it.

The Covid-19 vaccines have built on years of previous vaccine science and research. We have had vaccines since the 1940s. Currently there is a vast array of vaccines given worldwide, with millions of people receiving them safely every year

More recently we have had similar viruses such as SARS, a severe acute respiratory syndrome, epidemic in 2002 and the emergence of MERS, or Middle East respiratory syndrome, in 2012. Both these Coronaviruses were studied extensively, and gave a basis for the vaccine research for Covid-19.

"Early efforts by scientists at Oxford University to create an adenovirus-based vaccine against MERS provided the necessary experimental experience and groundwork to develop an adenovirus vaccine for COVID-19.”

'The biggest misconception is the work on the vaccine started when the pandemic began. Even before Covid-19 appeared Oxford University were working on vaccines in readiness for the next viral outbreak."

Vaccine research is expensive but again in the face of the pandemic, many countries have thrown a great deal of money into the mix in order to find a vaccine. This doesn't normally happen.

As the virus spread and became a pandemic, it spurred global cooperation for vaccine research and distribution. Time was a luxury the world could not afford. Researchers quickly mobilised to share their coronavirus data with other scientists. Due to the urgency of the situation, partnerships were forged and data shared. All these factors significantly reduced the length of time normally taken to find a vaccine. Many people stepped forward to be part of the trials needed to test the vaccines, as everyone realised the importance of the vaccine and the haste required. The data was checked and analysed swiftly but every single element, that normally takes years, was done correctly. This was due to the number of people working to produce a result. In other words, if I pay someone to clean my house and one person does it, it can take all day. If eight people clean my house, it's done in an hour.

I hope this helps.