Canada pauses AZ vaccines for under 55s (and says women most at risk)

[Boringlynormal]

Please tell me this isn’t something to worry about: www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/30/canada-suspends-use-of-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-for-those-under-55

Speaking as a woman in her 30s who was immunised 4 days ago (article tells us the risk is for young women 4 - 20 days after vaccination), I’m panicking now. Yes I know it’s rare but so is dying of Covid in my age group so I’m wondering if I’ve made a huge mistake.

By the way I’m very pro vaccine and leapt on the chance to get one. I’m just feeling so anxious now.

@Boringlynormal it’s not ideal is it. I’m the same, it’s not helping that it’s in the news a lot and that I’m naturally anxious. I get to the point where I remind myself the risk is tiny and that I had access to some of the data when I chose to go ahead but each time more info comes out I panic again and can’t focus on anything else. I’m sure I’d be far more objective about the risks if I hadn’t just had it as more concerns were raised again. I’ve spent the last year worrying about Covid and now this!

The 30 cases is cumulative so it includes the 5 they already had
It doesn't mean 25 more happened in a week. It says nothing about when they actually happened. They might have happened weeks ago.

This is from yellow card data and it's on the government website

www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

It does not say the age and sex of the 30 people. I think that's because for such a rare thing if you additionally put age and sex then people would be personally identifiable.

The extra cases uncovered is very easily explicable to me as people are just looking for it now.

b-s-h.org.uk/media/19512/guidance-version-10-on-mngmt-of-thrombosis-with-thrombocytopenia-occurring-after-c-19-vaccine_20210401.pdf

This guidance is explicitly encouraging people to report and giving them an easy mechanism to do that and very importantly guidance on recognition and treatment.

It's still very very rare
And it's still much rarer than harm and death from COVID.

@Boringlynormal

Another question (sorry). Are the 30 ‘new’ cases of this type of blood clot spanning the whole time since jabbing began or are they since the first five were announced so relatively recently? Which would seem to indicate it’s increasing as the age being jabbed decreases? And how do we find out how old and what sex they were?

They look new if you look at the yellow card reporting totals, sorry I know that's less reassuring. MHRA report says though that they are a mix of ages / sex without a clear pattern. www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

If it's similar to HIT then that can affect all ages but is more prevalent with younger women. At least half the cases they seem to have confirmed heparin issues; very unclear how that's related (if it is) apart from having the same symptoms. One of the most important things to be aware of is that the symptoms are swollen red leg or arm, and that it's treatable if you go to hospital reasonably quickly, with NHS having a treatment protocol. Here it is:
b-s-h.org.uk/about-us/news/guidance-produced-from-the-expert-haematology-panel-ehp-focussed-on-syndrome-of-thrombosis-and-thrombocytopenia-occurring-after-coronavirus-vaccination/

I just remembered I was given fragmin after caesarean with no reaction (except burning pain in the leg!), so definitely not in the risk group. I'm day 17 post vax now too. Just in case anyone nervous had heparin before without realising and can give themselves a mental tick.

I had self administered injections in my tummy after a fracture a year ago - would that be heparin?

i just remembered I was given fragmin after caesarean with no reaction (except burning pain in the leg!), so definitely not in the risk group. I'm day 17 post vax now too. Just in case anyone nervous had heparin before without realising and can give themselves a mental tick.

Apologies Mrex can you explain this

None of those countries have banned it they have paused giving it to a certain age group.

They could have all kinds of reasons for doing that. So far Europe has generally been taking an ultra cautious approach and so far they have been wrong

AZ was initially claimed not to work for over 60s. Some countries thought there was not enough data and didn't give it to that age group. They were then shown to be wrong when more data emerged

When the U.K. went for the 12 week gap between vaccine doses it was initially seen as risky and again 'not enough evidence' so other countries stuck to 3 or 4 weeks. Later evidence proved that the U.K. was right in its approach. We have therefore got more people vaccinated and that will save lives.

Taking some positive risks has been good for the U.K. so far. Our use of AZ for older people and the 12 week gap meant we've got more at risk people vaccinated and that will be saving lives. We are in a race against time to avoid a 3rd wave in the Autumn. Europe might have one before then if they don't hurry up.

There's such a thing as opportunity cost. The risk of what you didn't do. It's not always right to be ultra cautious because whilst you are busy avoiding a tiny risk of blood clots more people might be dying of COVID

And more people might be dying and suffering because of prolonged lockdown too.

Other countries will balance it differently depending on their current risk from Covid and their population attitude to and tolerance of risk
It doesn't mean they are right or that the U.K. is hiding anything it's just we came to a different conclusion on the risk: benefit balance

It was ‘inhixa’. Think it might be? Does that mean that since I was ok with it I’m less likely to react to the vaccine?

Op- yes that would likely be heparin

The possible vaccine induced condition is also known to be much more commonly induced by heparin so if you have had heparin and were fine that's a good indicator you are not prone to this rare condition.

@Whichjab

i just remembered I was given fragmin after caesarean with no reaction (except burning pain in the leg!), so definitely not in the risk group. I'm day 17 post vax now too. Just in case anyone nervous had heparin before without realising and can give themselves a mental tick.

Apologies Mrex can you explain this

It looks likely that there is some link to Heparin issues HIT, not just the similarities but also from tests on multiple cases. HIT is also rare, but perhaps a small percentage of women in this age group might get HIT if given heparin. I had been thinking to mention when heparin was used in case it reassured anyone and then realised I've had it myself in a very common usage.

Just looked it up and it seems it’s like ‘heparin light’ (low molecule weight heparin) so a less risky type of heparin so that you can take it at home. But I was ok with it. Sorry for the derail!

The you gov link says 'up to and including the 24th March we received 22 reports of CVST and 8 of other clots with low platelets' so I would take it that includes the 5 they had already reported on if it's up to and including

Or am I reading something wrong?

It is perhaps telling that I had ZERO knowledge or thoughts of the risk of the exact same condition when I injected myself post-fracture! I probably didn’t even read the insert. But am now worrying about the same thing cos it’s on the news...

@MRex thank you for your informative posts. Do you have the source re half of people reacting to the jab have confirmed heparin issues? Also finding this reassuring as I had the injections after a c section too.,

My only slight concern is will potential cases be taken seriously enough in time for successful treatment? Nationally? It's such a postcode lottery nowadays with 111 and A&E. A few years ago I was really ill but 111 didn't believe me and insisted it was a panic attack. I'd never had a panic attack but it was assumed because I'd suffered from mild anxiety in the past. I've not had great experiences at my local A&E either. Nor have other people going off the reviews. I'm fairly confident I'll be fine but if I'm one of those ultra rare cases, I'm going to hope I can get myself a cab to the better A&E in the neighbouring borough.

And that's where you have to take emotion out of it

You have for certain taken drugs more likely to kill you than this vaccine

eg the risk of anaphylaxis with penicillin is 0.02-0.04% but you'd give it to your kid with an ear infection wouldn't you?

You have for certain done activities more likely to kill you than this vaccine

Your risk of dying by being struck by lightning, drowning in the bath or being mauled by a dog are all much higher than your risk of dying from VIPIT.

Risk of dying in a fall or a car crash is about 1/100, drowning or dying in a fire around 1/1000. You have to go a long way to find something less likely to kill you than this vaccine but apparently flying on a plane might be it. Flying is odds of dying of 1 in millions and yet lots of people are very scared of it.

Humans aren't rational

@MRex in Norway 120 000 mostly young, female healthcare workers were given the vaccine and 6 developed the condition. That's 1 in 20 000 with a death rate of 50% (3 died, although some reports have said 4).

By the way, Holland have now also banned Astrazeneca in under 60s following some cases of CVST and a death.

@Tealightsandd this is a good point and a reason why more publicity needs to be given to the symptoms of this side effect.

But surely we need to add up all the cases worldwide vs the total exposure rather than looking at one country as a worst case scenario.

And again no one has banned anything
Paused doesn't sound as exciting I guess

@CovoidOfAllHumanity opportunity cost is relevant whilst high numbers of at-risk people remain unprotected (i.e. not fully vaccinated). But the numbers change once you are down to vaccinating the younger cohorts, who are at an extremely low risk of dying of Covid. Also, you are assuming that no other vaccine is available. As far as I understood, Moderna supplies are on the way to the UK and other vaccines will follow, including Novavax and Johnson & Johnson. Unless you actually WANT some young people to die of this now-known side effect then the answer is for the UK to use other vaccines in the younger cohort. Which is what an increasing number of other countries are doing.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity agreed - but this Norwegian data, along with the German/ Austrian experience, is the phenomenon that spooked so many countries initially.

Evening everyone. I'm 10 days post vaccine and three days ago I noticed purple splodges on my thighs. They are like small bruises no bigger than a pea but mainly smaller. I have about 10 in total.

Paid no attention to it until yesterday when my DH asked if I thought there was a link to the vaccine. Which I dismissed. Now I have just found this thread. 😬

The bruises are now starting to fade and no more have appear. Do you think it could be linked? I can't find much on Google.

My only slight concern is will potential cases be taken seriously enough in time for successful treatment? Nationally? It's such a postcode lottery nowadays with 111 and A&E.

I agree with this. If the worst were to happens and I got it I can so easily imagine arriving at my local A&E and them having never heard of this condition. And that’s after the 5+ hours it would take to even get seen.

I think I agree with CovoidOfAllHumanity
I'm definitely still very glad I had my jab. I think it's reassuring there's been publicity about these rare cases. Now we (and most importantly A&E staff/111) are aware of it, will know what to look out for and how to treat it.

@PurpleSplodge I'm thinking bruising/rash wouldn't go away if it was a clot? If you're really worried, perhaps check with 111 or your GP.

[quote Rainbowsandstorms]@MRex thank you for your informative posts. Do you have the source re half of people reacting to the jab have confirmed heparin issues? Also finding this reassuring as I had the injections after a c section too.,[/quote]
Tests done on 4 of 9 cases: www.medscape.com/viewarticle/948560
www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-362354/v1

It's worth noting a comment from the German researcher who found these cases:
Greinacher expressed astonishment that their findings were being used to justify restricting the vaccine. “People being severely sickened by covid-19 outnumber those who suffer from the vaccination reaction by several orders of magnitude,” he said. “To stop or to avoid vaccination only for the fear of getting an extremely rare, adverse reaction would be completely wrong.”
www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n883