Why the hand wringing about sections of the population not taking up their jab.....

[TransplantedScouser]

I keep hearing people banging on about it.

They’ve been offered it
They refused

The outcome of any is surely their choice. Either by restricting what they can do due to passport or if they suffer badly from covid.

[quote dividedwefall]@Unsure33 14 months into this deadly pandemic and I've still to meet anyone who has caught it, let alone got 'Long Covid' from it. So it's not that I'm ignoring it, just that it seems as rare as hen's teeth. In fact I know more people who've had crippling five day migraines from the vaccine than have tested positive, even asymptomatically, for this deadly, highly contagious disease.[/quote]
Yes I'm the same, the problem with " long covid " is anyone that feels ill with anything that doesn't fit into a certain defined medical condition now has this " long covid". I knew a neighbour around 2015 who was struck down with chronic fatigue with no definitive medical explanation- if that was 2021 no doubt it would be " long covid"

@dividedwefall,

But I could equally claim that, with Covid being a novel virus, you equally have no idea of the long term effects of even having mild COVID. There is evidence that even asymptomatic COVID can have a long term detrimental effect on the lungs and other organs. And it will take years to see whether the damage could be a precursor to lung cancer, for instance.

I would rather take my chances with an 'untested' vaccine based on long term proven technology than a novel virus.

You can only present people with the facts and discredit those who are pedalling nonsense. If people still choose not to be vaccinated we just have to let them get on with it and hope the impact on the rest of us is minimal. It will be interesting to see if vaccination passports to travel or take part in certain activities do become a reality and if so, how many change their minds as a result.

@ginghamstarfish

Yes, if they want to take the risk of getting ill and dying, let them crack on, but sadly it's not that simple. Much more important is the fact that they can also transmit the virus (and its variants) to those who are vulnerable, those who REALLY cannot have the vaccine due to health reasons, allergies, pregnancy etc. I think we should all have vaccine passports (and ID in general for that matter), so ideally they would be able to choose not to have the vaccine, but also not be able to travel, go to events, restaurants etc. If I knew someone like this I would be avoiding them at all costs.

Except vaccinated people may not be immune and could also pose a risk. Along with millions of children and pregnant women...

When it has reached Phase 3, I will be more than happy to have it. Until then I believe that the Nuremberg code applies. Have a look on the NHS website and inform yourselves about the side effects. These are just the short-term effects. No-one yet knows what the long term implications may be.

I think another issue is the frequency of these supposed vaccinations.. so hypothetically even if you have the first and second, a booster vaccination is being prepared in the autumn... is this the future, getting jabs every few months and after each one possibly experiencing side effects for a disease you aren't worried about " doing your bit " for society". That's a fairly terrifying dystopian future to me

[quote ginghamstarfish]@dividedwefall You seem to be exaggerating things, no one is talking about people being beaten to a pulp. This is a serious illness which, while it does affect more elderly/vulnerable people, also can seriously affect those of any age. It's a bit of a gamble. As we are a society, it behoves all of us to act in the best interests of the whole group. I did not particularly want to be vaccinated but feel it is my duty as part of society. Yes, we have the choice, but why should we not have to bear the consequences if we choose to endanger others?[/quote]
I'm not exaggerating. A society that segregates people for refusing unneeded medical treatment is a tyrannical, dangerous and dystopian society. Your opinion that people should be refused entry to bars without a vaccine passport is the thin end of a terrifying wedge. When you start removing rights from people who do things you don't agree with the lines start blurring and one day you or your children could be in the position of being ostracised from society for not complying with something they have every right not to comply with.

That we are even discussing this in the UK makes me feel sick.

Fewer than 400 out of 42 million under 40s have died of Covid. The government have obscured the figures across the board with their of Covid and With Covid nonsense. Given what a treacherous, lying fuck Boris is, I am amazed that anyone would do anything that he recommends. There is no legal redress against the Pharm companies.

Given the pressure to altruistically gift ‘spare doses’ to developing countries, I wouldn’t be surprised if stocks simply aren’t there when the ‘have it later’ brigade decide they do want it after all.

@Heathermary1995

Then just look at excess death figures then . They are accessible .

I agree with you about other countries reporting in different ways but I think you will find that Russia for example are minimising deaths . That has been widely reported . In some countries you count even get tested routinely like we do .

Excess death figures for the uk are very close with covid deaths recorded

Then why the use of "only 400 people under 60 without a health condition" why do you have to quantify your opinions by dividing people into groups. You say "most" people would be fine. How many is "most"? Most people under 60? Your using these figures to try to prove your beliefs that C19 isn't a big deal. You're doing it by manipulating the figures to exclude the hundreds of thousands of people who have died outside of your arbitrary parameters. You justify this warping of data by implying that the large proportion of people who died were elderly or already sick like it somehow excludes them from being relevant to this debate. It's abhorrent IMO.

@TheReluctantPhoenix

'The point is why take a vaccine you are at no risk from? The risk to healthy people under 60 is tiny, as evidenced by the '400 people under 60 without health conditions'.'

Well, why wouldn't you?

The risk from the vaccine is far less than the risk of catching the disease (even with only 400 deaths) and the side effects from the vaccine, which you describe as 'horrid', are still miniscule compared to being laid low with Covid for a couple of weeks (even without long Covid).

And that is aside from the argument of getting society functioning again, or the altruistic argument of protecting the vulnerable, including those with cancer, who might not be able to have the vaccine.

I think that anyone who refuses the vaccine just has not really viewed the evidence or thought about it very hard (to put it politely).

Except that around 80% of cases are mild/asymptomatic - probably considerably more when you’re looking at the younger, less at risk groups. Many have already had the virus and are immune. So why take the risk of side effects of the vaccine if it’s not going to actually benefit you that much?

I don’t understand why some young people think that COVID is ‘not a big deal’ but vaccine side effects are.

Even if you are 20, the chances of having a really rough time with COVID is magnitudes higher than you having a rough time with side effects.

Vaccine side effects...

@amusedtodeath1

Then why the use of "only 400 people under 60 without a health condition" why do you have to quantify your opinions by dividing people into groups. You say "most" people would be fine. How many is "most"? Most people under 60? Your using these figures to try to prove your beliefs that C19 isn't a big deal. You're doing it by manipulating the figures to exclude the hundreds of thousands of people who have died outside of your arbitrary parameters. You justify this warping of data by implying that the large proportion of people who died were elderly or already sick like it somehow excludes them from being relevant to this debate. It's abhorrent IMO.

It seems highly relevant to those trying to establish the risk of disease vs. risk of side effects from jab. If we don't look at the risk in our age group, upon what are we basing our actual risk assessment for our own health? Seems pretty crazy to ignore the relevant statistics so we don't offend people in other age groups!

[quote Unsure33]@Heathermary1995

Then just look at excess death figures then . They are accessible .

I agree with you about other countries reporting in different ways but I think you will find that Russia for example are minimising deaths . That has been widely reported . In some countries you count even get tested routinely like we do .

Excess death figures for the uk are very close with covid deaths recorded[/quote]
No the excess deaths are nowhere near the deaths reported that have apparently died from covid. Deaths have been increasingly steadily in numbers since 2011 where 552,000 people died compared to 2018 where 616,000 died an increase of 64,000 so the general trend is on the upward trajectory.

An article from last summer estimates approximately 21,000 deaths due to lockdown measures with thousands of missed operations etc.. bearing in mind this is 9 months ago so you could probably multiply that number three times now and subtract it away from the excess deaths which is around 80,000

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/29/lockdown-has-killed-21000-people-say-experts/

@dividedwefall

Well lucky old you .

Just ask on the nhs threads .

Just because you personally have not seen it does not mean it does not exist .

Unfortunately I have seen both deaths and long covid .

Personally I am not hand wringing about vaccines because they are not compulsory . Everyone has a choice that’s fine on as far as I am concerned .

What I don’t like is antivaxers trying to influence others .

Research the facts , not social media .

People have too much time on their hands .

@Heathermary1995

Well also you have to take into account that at one stage a large percentage of deaths were actually contracted in hospital .

I know someone who went in with no covid with serious bleeding .
Caught covid and died .

So there is no black and white answer is there ?

But also my mum was seriously ill during covid and was not left to die . She got treatment and survived .

@amusedtodeath1

Then why the use of "only 400 people under 60 without a health condition" why do you have to quantify your opinions by dividing people into groups. You say "most" people would be fine. How many is "most"? Most people under 60? Your using these figures to try to prove your beliefs that C19 isn't a big deal. You're doing it by manipulating the figures to exclude the hundreds of thousands of people who have died outside of your arbitrary parameters. You justify this warping of data by implying that the large proportion of people who died were elderly or already sick like it somehow excludes them from being relevant to this debate. It's abhorrent IMO.

Hundreds of thousands havent died outside any arbitrary parameters, please stop talking rubbish.

400 people dying are tragic, so are the 6500 people in 2018 for eg who committed suicide.. do you suggest we close society down for the suicidal with each house having a mental health nurse sent there to preserve life at all cost?

What is "abhorent" is detroying the lives of the vast majority in the belief you are protecting the minority where there isnt even any clear evidence it is working.. abhorrent , selfish for the future of children and utterly disgusting

If you were talking about your age group, then yes it's relevant. It's relevant to you personally. But nowhere has anyone mentioned their own age group or risk factors relevant to themselves. The whole 400 under 60 is dragged out to try to point to this all being a big fuss about nothing. Well it maybe based on your personal risk factors, but we are a society and we look after people where we can. Equal opportunities, fairness, justice and a sense of the sanctity of ALL live.

Your thinking for yourself but advocating for all of society. Don't have the vaccine if you don't want it, but at least admit that it's for selfish reasons, that you don't care about "society" as a whole in this matter and stop trying to persuade others that this is all a massive over reaction. The actions that have been taken were for the population as a whole not just your age-group.

@murbblurb

Some on here need an injection of intelligence. What's with the utter refusal to accept facts?

Life has a 100% mortality rate. Nothing is risk free. Nothing is safe. The vaccines are safer than the disease.

Use your brains, people.

Actually, you really don’t know this. Especially for younger people where the risk of dying from covid is tiny and the risks from The vaccine are not 100% known

@TheReluctantPhoenix

I don’t understand why some young people think that COVID is ‘not a big deal’ but vaccine side effects are.

Even if you are 20, the chances of having a really rough time with COVID is magnitudes higher than you having a rough time with side effects.

Have you a source for your misguided data?

@Unsure33

1. I do research facts and don't get my information from social media. But I don't mind being patronised if it gives you a moment of feeling superior. Enjoy!

1. I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything. Lots of people are trying to persuade, coerce and threaten people who don't want it to have it. This thread is about explaining why people might not want it to counteract those who think we should be rounded up and shot for our outrageous selfishness.

[quote Unsure33]@Heathermary1995

Well also you have to take into account that at one stage a large percentage of deaths were actually contracted in hospital .

I know someone who went in with no covid with serious bleeding .
Caught covid and died .

So there is no black and white answer is there ?

But also my mum was seriously ill during covid and was not left to die . She got treatment and survived .[/quote]
Are you 100% sure they died OF covid though. If they went into hospital with serious bleeding, might that have not been the cause even if they did test positive for covid? Not meaning to be offensive here but there are really big problems with the data.

[quote DumplingsAndStew]Nope, just watched it again (here's a link from the Telegraph - I see @Heathermary1995 approves it as a source). Definitely nothing about locking down for three weeks.

[/quote] @dividedwefall *@Heathermary1995*

You give out false information, which I correct for you, and you really have no comment to make?