Why the hand wringing about sections of the population not taking up their jab.....

[TransplantedScouser]

I keep hearing people banging on about it.

They’ve been offered it
They refused

The outcome of any is surely their choice. Either by restricting what they can do due to passport or if they suffer badly from covid.

Only 400 people under 60 without health conditions? Well that's ok then, because all the kids with illnesses that died aren't relevent, ditto anyone over 60 or anyone under 60 with a health issue.

People are people, we are all equal, all relevant and all valuable regardless of age, race, health, personality, religion, etc.

Anyone who discriminates against any group of people isn't someone who's opinion I'm interested in. If someone is lucky they will be 60+ at some point and then their life, opinion, needs, even their right to live will also be dismissed, because to the younger generation doesn't see you as having any value.

To believe that these lives are irrelevant, insignificant and unworthy of being seen as a loss means you are discriminating against your future selves.

@amusedtodeath1

Only 400 people under 60 without health conditions? Well that's ok then, because all the kids with illnesses that died aren't relevent, ditto anyone over 60 or anyone under 60 with a health issue.

People are people, we are all equal, all relevant and all valuable regardless of age, race, health, personality, religion, etc.

Anyone who discriminates against any group of people isn't someone who's opinion I'm interested in. If someone is lucky they will be 60+ at some point and then their life, opinion, needs, even their right to live will also be dismissed, because to the younger generation doesn't see you as having any value.

To believe that these lives are irrelevant, insignificant and unworthy of being seen as a loss means you are discriminating against your future selves.

Bit of a silly post emotionally virtue signalling saying " the 400 under 60s dont matter" when more people than that have killed themselves due to lockdown.

No one is saying their lives don't mater but people like you are irrational unable to weigh up the lives lost/ruined from the reaction to covid than actual covid. Stop preaching in a sanctimonious holier than tho tone implying Ive said 400 lives dont matter when thousands of people have died due to lockdown measures.. one of the reasons we have continual lockdowns is individuals unable to get any sense of perspective on actual numbers when we all have finite lives

@DumplingsAndStew

We were told last year it would be 3 weeks

No, we weren't.

www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-latest-lockdown-panic-buying-news-cases-nhs/

@Heathermary1995

Given that booster jabs are being arranged for the autumn, are people prepared to keep taking jabs every few months for a disease that has killed fewer than 400 people under 60 with no health conditions and an average age of death above life expectancy. If people aren't worried about the hundreds of women on here reporting missed periods and feel terrified enough of covid to get jabbed every few months fair enough.

I don't think its reasonable to expect any young person to subject themselves to a list of potentially grim side effects every few months for a disease that has a lower risk of death than crossing a busy road every day.

Each year thousands die of flu so perhaps the flu vaccine should have a two tier system of passports also or maybe people should take personal responsibility for their own health and their immediate family making a decision what to inject or not inject where we all have finite lives with the people prattling on about saving the NHS drinking and smoking themselves to an early grave eating rubbish.

Well bloody said.

@DumplingsAndStew

We were told last year it would be 3 weeks

No, we weren't.

Yes we were. 3 weeks to flatten the curve, squash the sombrero, just a little longer. Don't blow it now we've come this far. Now a tier system which you can get out of by following the rules. Oh no, full lockdown again before you even climbed out of sodding tier 3.

Why? What did you hear?

@Heathermary1995

8.36pm
"And I can assure you that we will keep these restrictions under constant review. We will look again in three weeks, and relax them if the evidence shows we are able to. "

Given that approx 15 million people have a long term health condition it is no real surprise that so many who died had a pre existing condition.
A long term condition doesn't always mean that you are frail. I have mild asthma and a couple of other pre existing conditions but I am fit and well still.

@dividedwefall

It was said to be reviewed in 3 weeks. Please find evidence to the contrary - preferably video from the PM (since I'm guessing it's him you are claiming said it?)

@amusedtodeath1

Only 400 people under 60 without health conditions? Well that's ok then, because all the kids with illnesses that died aren't relevent, ditto anyone over 60 or anyone under 60 with a health issue.

People are people, we are all equal, all relevant and all valuable regardless of age, race, health, personality, religion, etc.

Anyone who discriminates against any group of people isn't someone who's opinion I'm interested in. If someone is lucky they will be 60+ at some point and then their life, opinion, needs, even their right to live will also be dismissed, because to the younger generation doesn't see you as having any value.

To believe that these lives are irrelevant, insignificant and unworthy of being seen as a loss means you are discriminating against your future selves.

I think you have totally missed the point. The point is why take a vaccine you are at no risk from? The risk to healthy people under 60 is tiny, as evidenced by the '400 people under 60 without health conditions'.

The post wasn't about being okay with young people dying. Just that it isn't the responsibility of millions of others to risk horrid side effects to potentially, not definitely, save them.

It's about perspective, risk and proportionality. Same as the 'old people over 80 more likely to die of COVID' thread where tons of posters are wailing about genocide of the old people just because someone pointed out that maybe they were pretty damn close to going anyway, having exceeded average life expectancy. Not all, but many.

Yes, if they want to take the risk of getting ill and dying, let them crack on, but sadly it's not that simple. Much more important is the fact that they can also transmit the virus (and its variants) to those who are vulnerable, those who REALLY cannot have the vaccine due to health reasons, allergies, pregnancy etc. I think we should all have vaccine passports (and ID in general for that matter), so ideally they would be able to choose not to have the vaccine, but also not be able to travel, go to events, restaurants etc. If I knew someone like this I would be avoiding them at all costs.

I think people are ignoring long covid at their peril . Deaths are not the only risk .

And this is affecting young people as well .

When you see it happening to people you know and love you will feel differently I am sure .

I hate the comparison with flu . If we continued with 1000 to 2000 deaths a day just use your maths as to comparing it with flu deaths which are on average 17000 to 20000 per year . Not 365000

Plus how many people ( with flu) do you know of say age 45 parents and a son of 25 who all end up in hospital at the same time , and the father at 45 is in an induced coma with a hole in his lung plus blood clots on his lung on 99% oxygen .

There is no comparison and I am sure the doctors and nurses would be very angry at people who through this ridiculous analogy about .

Nope, just watched it again (here's a link from the Telegraph - I see @Heathermary1995 approves it as a source). Definitely nothing about locking down for three weeks.

@ginghamstarfish I tend to avoid people with opinions like yours so I can't really criticise.

I think you are wrong, small minded, and living in the wrong country. Countries that discriminate against those refusing medical treatment they do not need or want tend to be unpleasant countries in other ways too. It starts with a passport, but do you want your children unable to say what they think on the internet, or be forced to have other medications that maybe you won't agree with in future? Or beaten to a pulp and imprisoned for protesting? Because that's what your small minded, short sighted opinions lead to. History, and indeed the present, is full of they type of countries you get when you start removing bodily autonomy.

I want the vaccine for me, not for others (yes I am "selfish"). I am not scared of dying, but I don't want long covid and that is enough for me to take the vaccine when it is offered to me, whenever that may be.

I wish they'd get on with giving it to those who want it, rather than trying to mop up the refusers (I know some people who've not had it were ill, had symptoms or just couldn't make the appointment they were offered).

(that is not scared of dying of covid)

@Unsure33 14 months into this deadly pandemic and I've still to meet anyone who has caught it, let alone got 'Long Covid' from it. So it's not that I'm ignoring it, just that it seems as rare as hen's teeth. In fact I know more people who've had crippling five day migraines from the vaccine than have tested positive, even asymptomatically, for this deadly, highly contagious disease.

@poppycat10 that's good to hear. That's exactly how it should be.

@ginghamstarfish

Yes, if they want to take the risk of getting ill and dying, let them crack on, but sadly it's not that simple. Much more important is the fact that they can also transmit the virus (and its variants) to those who are vulnerable, those who REALLY cannot have the vaccine due to health reasons, allergies, pregnancy etc. I think we should all have vaccine passports (and ID in general for that matter), so ideally they would be able to choose not to have the vaccine, but also not be able to travel, go to events, restaurants etc. If I knew someone like this I would be avoiding them at all costs.

I'm sure everyone knowing you will be " avoiding those who dont want to take the vaccine at all costs" will be devastated to read that revelation but hopefully therapy will improve that terrible news.

I'm delighted you are such a good citizen with genuine concern for others, as you are looking to preserve life at all costs I presume you have had the flu vaccine every summer as thousands die of it with an average age of death lower than covid. Do you drive a car or make unnecessary trips on public transport?

Air pollution linked to one in 19 UK deaths

Long-term exposure to air pollution is killing one in 19 people in the UK, according to researchers at Centre for Cities.

They’ve published their annual study, Cities Outlook, which includes a major focus on toxic air and how it’s impacting on city and town dwellers across the UK.

The estimates vary significantly depending on location. For example, the proportion of deaths related to fine particulate matter (PM2.5) is highest in cities and large towns in southeastern England such as Slough, Luton and London, where an estimated one in 16 people die from exposure.

Meanwhile, cities in Scotland and northern England see the smallest proportion of PM2.5-related deaths. Aberdeen is the city with the lowest proportion, at one in 33.

Their research found that 62% of roads monitored in UK cities are exceeding the WHO’s annual PM2.5 guideline of 10μg/m3.

In 19 cities, all monitored roads are breaching the WHO guideline potentially exposing 14 million people to the pollutant on a daily basis.
airqualitynews.com/2020/01/27/air-pollution-linked-to-one-in-19-uk-deaths/

The ones that preach to others what they should be doing with their own health I find to be the biggest hypocrites of all

'The point is why take a vaccine you are at no risk from? The risk to healthy people under 60 is tiny, as evidenced by the '400 people under 60 without health conditions'.'

Well, why wouldn't you?

The risk from the vaccine is far less than the risk of catching the disease (even with only 400 deaths) and the side effects from the vaccine, which you describe as 'horrid', are still miniscule compared to being laid low with Covid for a couple of weeks (even without long Covid).

And that is aside from the argument of getting society functioning again, or the altruistic argument of protecting the vulnerable, including those with cancer, who might not be able to have the vaccine.

I think that anyone who refuses the vaccine just has not really viewed the evidence or thought about it very hard (to put it politely).

No comment?

@TheReluctantPhoenix

The risk from the vaccine is far less than the risk of catching the disease (even with only 400 deaths) and the side effects from the vaccine, which you describe as 'horrid', are still miniscule compared to being laid low with Covid for a couple of weeks (even without long Covid).

I'm sorry but you simply cannot know this. Nobody knows this because the vaccines are literally months old. Just because they have been working on them for 19 years in a lab does not mean we know how they act in the wild with this particular disease.

And no offence taken either. I would wager I have spent more time thinking seriously about this than many on this board because it is very important to me.

@Unsure33

I think people are ignoring long covid at their peril . Deaths are not the only risk .

And this is affecting young people as well .

When you see it happening to people you know and love you will feel differently I am sure .

I hate the comparison with flu . If we continued with 1000 to 2000 deaths a day just use your maths as to comparing it with flu deaths which are on average 17000 to 20000 per year . Not 365000

Plus how many people ( with flu) do you know of say age 45 parents and a son of 25 who all end up in hospital at the same time , and the father at 45 is in an induced coma with a hole in his lung plus blood clots on his lung on 99% oxygen .

There is no comparison and I am sure the doctors and nurses would be very angry at people who through this ridiculous analogy about .

We have never had the reported deaths per day of covid as we have discussed on other threads.. a 95 year old that dies with cancer and has covid which millions have had mainly not even knowing they have had it has not " died of covid" despite it going down as a covid death. Cause and effect where two separate health issues are linked with extremely tenuous extrapolations between the two is not an accurate reflection of deaths. Millions of people have had covid, if 700,000 people die each year in the UK many of them will have had covid as many will have had the common cold.

If you want a more accurate guide to covid deaths research excess deaths and subtract the number who are estimated to have died as a consequence of lockdown measures which are in the thousands.

Every country has different measures of how they record covid deaths which is why the Uk which has had deaths from people run over by a car yet testing positive for covid 2 weeks earlier " dying of covid- compare south africa with the supposedly deadly covid variant and a death toll less than half of the Uk with a similar population size or India with a population 20 times ours that records deaths differently

@dividedwefall You seem to be exaggerating things, no one is talking about people being beaten to a pulp. This is a serious illness which, while it does affect more elderly/vulnerable people, also can seriously affect those of any age. It's a bit of a gamble. As we are a society, it behoves all of us to act in the best interests of the whole group. I did not particularly want to be vaccinated but feel it is my duty as part of society. Yes, we have the choice, but why should we not have to bear the consequences if we choose to endanger others?

Two words....
HERD IMMUNITY