Vaccines: Refusers versus aspirers

[PuzzledObserver]

I sometimes think I'm living in an alternate universe.

There are all these posts over social media, including mumsnet, about how vaccines are evil, they are all sent to kill us, DO YOUR RESEARCH you sheeple.

And then there are all the other posts about so relieved my Mum had her vaccine, it's not fair that I/my mum/my friend who is CEV hasn't got their vaccine yet and the EU are trying to shaft us.

It's a bit disconcerting, if I'm honest. But then I look at the takeup numbers, and it does seem that those who want the vaccine are the large majority.

So, which are you?

1. Had it/will have it when invited
2. No way, Jose
3. Mmmm.... still deliberating.

I'm a 1.

Also important that we research science of the mind and human behaviour, since that is behind much of the policy around pandemic management this time around.

gspm.online.gwu.edu/blog/public-relations-and-propaganda-techniques/

@WanderingFruitWonderer you say you were horrified about the adenovirus used in the AZ vaccine being extracted from a chimp. How would you extract an adenovirus, exactly? Because it seems to me that the easiest way would be to take a swab from its nose.

I still haven't understood why all the governments in the world in tandem with all the top scientists in the world and the evil MSM are trying to kill me, but maybe I will get it when I develop a third eye in 2022.

@Frequentflier

I still haven't understood why all the governments in the world in tandem with all the top scientists in the world and the evil MSM are trying to kill me, but maybe I will get it when I develop a third eye in 2022.

If you had done your research like the rest of us you would know that you already have a third eye pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3435677/

And if that third eye was open you would know what was going on.

(Disclaimer before someone comes on and argues with me about this statement - I'm joking obviously but I couldn't resist)

good to know. I am ofc none the wiser.

@PuzzledObserver to be honest I don't know how it was extracted. I'm keen to find out more about it, to know exactly what went on. I'm finding it hard to get that information...

Having said that though @PuzzledObserver, I'd have a problem with it, no matter what. The fact the poor creatures were imprisoned, and used in any way to help create the vaccine, makes it ethically unacceptable to me as a vegan and animal rights activist

@WanderingFruitWonderer

Having said that though *@PuzzledObserver*, I'd have a problem with it, no matter what. The fact the poor creatures were imprisoned, and used in any way to help create the vaccine, makes it ethically unacceptable to me as a vegan and animal rights activist

Do you deny any modern medicine or just pick and choose? What if you became ill and needed medical treatment? Do you deny treatment if it's ethically unacceptable too?

@roguetomato I try to be very consistent (see my posts above) but I recognise that so far that's been easy for me, as I've not had serious medical issues needing treatment. I know there may come a time when I may have to have medical treatment. It's a complex moral issue.
I wouldn't say I'm denying treatment, or even the vaccine now though. In relation to this thread I'm a 3, not a 2. I was a 1 a few weeks ago, but changed my mind. It's more that it's a very difficult and distressing moral dilemma for me. I try to live by the motto 'do no harm' so this is agony for me, as it feels like there is no harmless choice. As explained above, I may compromise by hanging on for now (low risk, and low risk lifestyle and very careful with the lockdown rules) until/if the UK gets the canadian vaccine Medicago, which is plant-based apparently...

I can understand what you are saying, @WanderingFruitWonderer.
Sorry if I was a bit mean. But having a child with lots of medical issue since birth, I have no choice but to rely on medical advancement.

Don't worry at all @roguetomato! I didn't think you came across as mean. You asked a reasonable question. Questions I ask myself all the time.
I understand your reaction too, in the light of your child needing essential treatment. I'd feel exactly the same in your situation. I hope you both get all the treatment and help you and he/she needs to be well

@dividedwefall

It's quite patronising to mock those who 'do their own research'.

So when the government, it's BIU or MSM is telling something you know doesn't add up or make sense, or changes their story or U-turns or even outright lies, you just go along with it? You don't delve further into the matter and see what's behind the story?

I pity you in that case. Although life must be a lot simpler and easier just going along with everything you are told and told to do, so I also envy you a bit.

I'm cynical. When I hear a government lie to me I want to know why.

You’re conflating a lot of different things here. You imply that people go along with the status quo because they “believe everything they are told to do” - no, perhaps it’s because they think it is actually the logical thing to do. Obviously the government have got plenty of things wrong and have lied, I don’t need to carry out a “systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions” (actual definition of research) to know that.

And it’s somewhat ironic that you are calling posters “patronising” because they question the misuse of the word “research”, when the whole of the rest of your post couldn’t be more patronising if you tried.

@WanderingFruitWonderer

One of the reasons I'm now a 3, and no longer a 1, is that I'm a vegan, and passionate about animal rights. I was horrified when I learnt that the Oxford AZ vaccine is made by extracting a cold virus from chimpanzees and modifying it. Not to mention all the horrific animal testing. I've heard that a new plant-based vaccine is being developed in Canada, called Medicago. If it gets the go ahead, and the UK gets some, then I'll be much more inclined to get vaccinated. At the moment, it's a very difficult moral dilemma for me. It's giving me sleepless nights to be honest. I care about people too. Fortunately I'm quite far down the list, and also low risk, with a low risk lifestyle. I'll continue to be ultra careful with social distancing and mask wearing for as long as it takes too. For some of us, it's extremely complicated...

Have you checked how all your clothes and shoes are made ?

Also, I used to be a vegan so I'm not having a go at you but are you aware that plant based alternatives, especially soya are absolutely destroying the environment. The way that that is produced completely wrecks the ground it's grown in as it uses so much water which has to be brought in from elsewhere that it floods the ground and then damages all ground around it making it impossible to grow anything else. Meaning the local areas are made poorer not richer.

I would still be vegan if I was able to be (I can't due to health reasons and that devastated me) but actually there is quite a lot about veganism that isn't ethical or helpful.

I think you need to do a little more research into your claims about drugs being tested on animals because it's not just the covid vaccine. As a PP has said...if you look into it you will absolutely find that things you likely take without thinking have been tested on animals.

I wish I could be vegan because I don't want to eat animals but you do have to be aware that a vegan lifestyle is not as ethical and good for the environment as many people think it is

Also, I wonder where you stand on this - you don't don't want this because of something that's been taken from a chimp (the chip won't have been killed)... But if the people who can have the vaccine don't have it, then you're harming your fellow humans - I can't have the vaccine because of severe allergies. If people around me don't have it then they're putting me at risk because I rely on herd immunity for this and many things. A few years ago I had a very premature and immunosuppressed baby, she couldn't have certain vaccines and relied on herd immunity from others. Your attitude actually is quite selfish I'm afraid.

@OpheliasCrayon I'm afraid I find your post very hurtful, on several levels. I've been in agony over this, precisely because I care about people too. It's quite bullying to tell people they're being selfish when you don't know anything about them, their lives, their past, their anxieties.
Few things in life are black and white.
I care enormously about immunosuppressed babies, and all vulnerable people. I've adhered to all lockdown rules religiously and more. There are many reasons this vaccine situation is complex for me. I'm agonising over it, and I can't tell you how upsetting, hurtful and unhelpful it is to read a post like yours. To use emotional blackmail like that is unkind, cruel even. We're all entitled to a moral stance. I disagree with you about veganism, but wouldn't dream of calling you selfish. So please, please don't say anything more, if it isn't to be helpful

[quote WanderingFruitWonderer]@OpheliasCrayon I'm afraid I find your post very hurtful, on several levels. I've been in agony over this, precisely because I care about people too. It's quite bullying to tell people they're being selfish when you don't know anything about them, their lives, their past, their anxieties.
Few things in life are black and white.
I care enormously about immunosuppressed babies, and all vulnerable people. I've adhered to all lockdown rules religiously and more. There are many reasons this vaccine situation is complex for me. I'm agonising over it, and I can't tell you how upsetting, hurtful and unhelpful it is to read a post like yours. To use emotional blackmail like that is unkind, cruel even. We're all entitled to a moral stance. I disagree with you about veganism, but wouldn't dream of calling you selfish. So please, please don't say anything more, if it isn't to be helpful [/quote]
I'm very sorry but you can't tell me, as the immunosuppressed person, who's had a baby who has been immunosuppressed, to NOT tell you how I feel about your attitude because it might hurt you.

It's the facts isn't it - if people do not get the vaccine then it reduces the opportunity for herd immunity, which then will impact people like me and countless others.

I'm awfully sorry but this is a public forum and you don't get to tell me whether I can comment on what you say or not.

What if I find your attitude hurtful because you blatantly don't care about herd immunity for others? Can I not be hurt? Or is that just you?

@OpheliasCrayon of course I care about herd immunity. I haven't even said I'm not going to have the vaccine! I've just said that I've become unsure if I want the current vaccines yet, for various reasons. I will continue to keep myself in relative isolation till it's safe too. I've thought about it a great deal. I don't want to put anyone at risk.
I'm so sorry about your health issues, and I genuinely mean that. But, you've misunderstood me, and you've not been fair.
It's generally not a good idea to accuse complete strangers of selfishness, and I can assure you doesn't make them more inclined to your point of view.
I'm not sure this dialogue is useful for either of us. So I wish you well, and I think it's time for me to hide this thread

[quote WanderingFruitWonderer]@OpheliasCrayon of course I care about herd immunity. I haven't even said I'm not going to have the vaccine! I've just said that I've become unsure if I want the current vaccines yet, for various reasons. I will continue to keep myself in relative isolation till it's safe too. I've thought about it a great deal. I don't want to put anyone at risk.
I'm so sorry about your health issues, and I genuinely mean that. But, you've misunderstood me, and you've not been fair.
It's generally not a good idea to accuse complete strangers of selfishness, and I can assure you doesn't make them more inclined to your point of view.
I'm not sure this dialogue is useful for either of us. So I wish you well, and I think it's time for me to hide this thread [/quote]
Wow! I think you need to take things a little less to heart. I wouldn't like to live getting this upset about what random people online say....

@PuzzledObserver

I like your use of sheeple. Not quite sure which 'side' it's meant to be against. But I think it's great for everyone to do their own research.

I’ve mostly seen it used as a derogatory term by people espousing conspiracy theories against people who accept the position as reported by mainstream media, hence “Do your own research.”

I agree that doing a bit of digging is sensible. I don’t believe that the mainstream media are part of some big international conspiracy to subjugate the human race or any such thing.

A free press is a tremendously powerful force for keeping both government and industry in check. You can bet your bottom dollar that if the media got wind of government, official bodies or corporations deliberately doing something known or calculated to be harmful, they would be all over it. If there are errors or obfuscation in the data, all it takes is one whistle blower and it will be all over the front pages.

This is why I am not worried about ADE after vaccination and many other things which are put forward as a reason not to vaccinate - if it was going to happen in any numbers, we would know about it by now.

NB - there are genuine medical reasons not to vaccinate for some.

Media is controlled, any criticism of cv or measures is banned on all media platforms, apparently doctors signed non disclosure contracts. I know people who have lost their jobs for voicing their opinions relating to cv. How do you think reporting anything that is not in agreement with the mainstream story is possible? A balanced research takes both sides of the situation but that is not the case here.

@OpheliasCrayon yes I probably am being very oversensitive. I think it's such an emotive issue. Also, of course you can't see me up in the middle of the night having panic attacks about this. Just as you have allergies, I have severe anxiety and OCD, which can make these things very complex for me.
I would never intentionally harm any of my fellow humans (I'm a pacifist) and so, your posts really hit a nerve. I've thought about all things vaccine, so your assumption that I didn't care about herd immunity was really difficult to read. I do care immensely!
I also can see that for you as an ex-vegan whose options are limited by your allergies, my post may also have accidentally hit a nerve? If so, I sincerely apologise. I would never have wanted to offend anyone with my post. I was just adding another viewpoint to the discussion. As there are multiple reasons for vaccine hesitancy. I wasn't so hesitant a few weeks ago.
It's not just the animal issue (though that's huge for me) that makes me worried. I also have medical anxiety, and some allergies too, though obviously not as severely as you.
I think the suggestion that anyone even slightly questioning the vaccine is selfish, is somewhat wearing me down. Someone could spend their whole life helping others, and buying fair trade goods, avoiding flying etc, but if they don't want the vaccine for whatever reason, they're now selfish! It seems unfair. I actually thought vaccine refusers were selfish a few weeks ago. But I've changed my mind for various reasons, and regret saying & thinking those things. People are more than their vaccination status.
Anyway, I didn't want to leave it like I had. But needed to explain my hyper-sensiitve reaction, and to apologise if anything I said caused any offense too.
I probably will get vaccinated eventually one way or other (probably won't get offered it till May or June anyhow) but I just need time to think it, and all the issues, through. That doesn't make me selfish!
Apologies for the essay!

I'm also unable to have the vaccine.
As for other people, completely their choice and I think they should be free to chose without having any constraints or pressure put on them. Wether this is from within or from other people.

There's millions of other illnesses that can quite easily kill me off like whooping cough which landed my arse in hospital last year.

To help people like me it is down to basic hygiene from you. Why aren't you washing your hands? Why aren't you covering your mouths when you sneeze /cough? Why are sneezing/coughing into your hand and then want to shake me hand? Why are you going out when you have a temperature? Why are you dosing your children with calpol to reduce temp to get them into the school?

[quote WanderingFruitWonderer]@OpheliasCrayon yes I probably am being very oversensitive. I think it's such an emotive issue. Also, of course you can't see me up in the middle of the night having panic attacks about this. Just as you have allergies, I have severe anxiety and OCD, which can make these things very complex for me.
I would never intentionally harm any of my fellow humans (I'm a pacifist) and so, your posts really hit a nerve. I've thought about all things vaccine, so your assumption that I didn't care about herd immunity was really difficult to read. I do care immensely!
I also can see that for you as an ex-vegan whose options are limited by your allergies, my post may also have accidentally hit a nerve? If so, I sincerely apologise. I would never have wanted to offend anyone with my post. I was just adding another viewpoint to the discussion. As there are multiple reasons for vaccine hesitancy. I wasn't so hesitant a few weeks ago.
It's not just the animal issue (though that's huge for me) that makes me worried. I also have medical anxiety, and some allergies too, though obviously not as severely as you.
I think the suggestion that anyone even slightly questioning the vaccine is selfish, is somewhat wearing me down. Someone could spend their whole life helping others, and buying fair trade goods, avoiding flying etc, but if they don't want the vaccine for whatever reason, they're now selfish! It seems unfair. I actually thought vaccine refusers were selfish a few weeks ago. But I've changed my mind for various reasons, and regret saying & thinking those things. People are more than their vaccination status.
Anyway, I didn't want to leave it like I had. But needed to explain my hyper-sensiitve reaction, and to apologise if anything I said caused any offense too.
I probably will get vaccinated eventually one way or other (probably won't get offered it till May or June anyhow) but I just need time to think it, and all the issues, through. That doesn't make me selfish!
Apologies for the essay![/quote]
Im not remotely bothered by what someone says to me on MN. But you writing a long post trying to persuade me that you're not selfish and I shouldn't have said it isn't going to change my mind I'm afraid. Sorry but I don't agree with you and I think your views are selfish.

I was going to have it if offered (I say if as I believe they’ll give up on it before getting to those in their 30s or lower) but then they starting saying things like they were going to “send the persuaders around to speak to refuseniks” so have decided against it. If they want to play games like that and use terminology like that they can keep it.

@Jo99996

I was going to have it if offered (I say if as I believe they’ll give up on it before getting to those in their 30s or lower) but then they starting saying things like they were going to “send the persuaders around to speak to refuseniks” so have decided against it. If they want to play games like that and use terminology like that they can keep it.

I suppose because I am not British and come from a country where polio was defeated by these methods, I see nothing wrong in this.

@Jo99996

I was going to have it if offered (I say if as I believe they’ll give up on it before getting to those in their 30s or lower) but then they starting saying things like they were going to “send the persuaders around to speak to refuseniks” so have decided against it. If they want to play games like that and use terminology like that they can keep it.

Very mature attitude.

then they starting saying things like they were going to “send the persuaders around to speak to refuseniks”

Who are they?