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What is happening in France (and Italy)

164 replies

Northernsoullover · 20/03/2021 12:40

Does anyone know why their cases are soaring? I know that areas of France and Italy are back in lockdown but does that mean they had limited restrictions before? I have googled but wondered if there were any resident mumsnetters who might be able to shed some light?

OP posts:
Sgtmajormummy · 20/03/2021 18:21

I’m in Italy and have two points to make:
1.
Italy has 25% of its population over 65. They are the ones being taken by COVID. The average age of death with or from COVID before January was 82 and the majority had pre-existing conditions.
In Italy most people that age still live or interact with their extended family (workers, school children) with all the super spreader risks that involves.
Old people already ill enough to be in nursing homes were infected with COVID at alarming levels. Now vaccinated.
In 2021 (average age of death 81) COVID is affecting the whole population, who statistically won’t die of it. But obviously as numbers increase so does the death toll.

  1. The Italian medical community.
Doctors in Italy are protocol bound. They only treat patients in accordance with accepted practices. This means that until a patient has a positive test they “shouldn’t” be treated as COVID cases. Sometimes it’s progressed and care is too little too late. New medicines are approved in longer times than other countries. So doubts concerning AZ vaccines meant they were kept in storage and those booked in (80yo+) couldn’t be vaccinated in sufficient numbers with the remaining Pfizer or Moderna doses. Teachers were vaccinated with AZ as they are younger (see PP about teachers). Only medical staff are permitted to give vaccines. No volunteers allowed. Pharmacies will be the next community vaccination points, not huge exhibition centers like in the UK. Triage problems. Ambulances with one suspected COVID case on board are kept waiting 4+ hours outside emergency units (see above). Due to lack of facilities (and criminally slow buying of funded equipment) COVID patients are placed in rooms with other patients until a place is found in a Sub-IC or IC unit.

Vaccines are now being coordinated by a General from the Italian Army. Hopefully this will streamline things. Italian people ARE following lockdown and social distancing but schools were open until recently and people still go to work. The curfew is to make socializing of any sort Illegal. There are strict rules about visiting and we knew our Christmas socializing was going to be reduced we’ll in advance (not like the ludicrous 3-family idea in the UK which was then revoked).
I personally take offence at the anti-European sentiments on this thread. Nobody is going to beat this virus, we’re all trying to cope with it. But some posters want the UK to be seen as “winning”. It’s really not.

Pootle40 · 20/03/2021 18:24

@Northernsoullover

It'll be interesting to see what happens to our infection rate once restrictions are relaxed. That will be the real test of our vaccination programme.
I disagree. Infections could soar and the test of our vaccination programme will be whether hospital admissions and deaths are significantly lower. Let's look forward to the day when the number of 'cases' is much more irrelevant
notrub · 20/03/2021 18:30

@psychomath

As someone who started following it closely from just after NY, ALL OF IT lol.

Let's face it, the UK had well over 2 months to prepare and we didn't even come close to dealing with it as well.

All of it, @notrub? You mean the part where they didn't introduce any kind of regulation of the wet markets after SARS, or H5N1, or the numerous warnings from scientists that they were breeding grounds for potential future pandemics? Where they arrested the doctor who first tried to warn other people? Where they arrested software developers for trying to keep an accurate record of the pandemic so it couldn't be whitewashed by censors, and several citizen journalists mysteriously disappeared after reporting from Wuhan in the early days? (Fang Bin is still missing, after being arrested over a year ago.) Where a woman was sentenced to four years in prison, after being restrained for 24 hours a day and tube fed, for the crime of interviewing citizens of Wuhan and uploading the footage to youtube before the government had fully acknowledged that they were facing a disaster? Where the government lied about human-to-human transmission and refused information to the WHO? Where government officials dragged people out of their homes and forced them to quarantine centres, welded people into their - or other people's - houses, and forcibly separated toddlers and babies from their parents? (The latter is still happening in Hong Kong, incidentally.) Where officials left a disabled teenager to die while his father begged for help on social media, because he'd been forced into quarantine after running a fever and in the meantime no-one in charge bothered to feed his son?

All of it, 'lol'.

Where they arrested the doctor who first tried to warn other people?

FALSE- Go look at the date he messaged his colleagues and then look at the date China told the WHO they had a novel viral outbreak.

Where the government lied about human-to-human transmission

False - the first variant of sars-cov-2 wasn't H2H transmittable. 93 initial cases ALL the contacts family were isolated and tested repeatedly and none ever tested +ve. The virus mutated into a more H2H transmittable form - this is all well documented now - sad you still believe this Trump crap.

As for the rest of your rant - rather irrelevant really since it pertains to the actions of individuals NOT the overall approach from China.

If you'd been in charge of China, millions would have died - it takes a special kind of person to believe that that's a better outcome.

Northernsoullover · 20/03/2021 18:32

@Pootle40 yes, that too.

OP posts:
lljkk · 20/03/2021 18:36

Thanks @Sgtmajormummy.

tobee · 20/03/2021 18:38

@Sunshinegirl82

I'm afraid I really can't take anyone who holds China as an example of how government's should behave seriously.
This!!!
tobee · 20/03/2021 18:41

I'm sure all the virus figures from China are totally accurate

PersimmonTree · 20/03/2021 18:49

@Sgtmajormummy

I’m in Italy and have two points to make: 1. Italy has 25% of its population over 65. They are the ones being taken by COVID. The average age of death with or from COVID before January was 82 and the majority had pre-existing conditions. In Italy most people that age still live or interact with their extended family (workers, school children) with all the super spreader risks that involves. Old people already ill enough to be in nursing homes were infected with COVID at alarming levels. Now vaccinated. In 2021 (average age of death 81) COVID is affecting the whole population, who statistically won’t die of it. But obviously as numbers increase so does the death toll.
  1. The Italian medical community.
Doctors in Italy are protocol bound. They only treat patients in accordance with accepted practices. This means that until a patient has a positive test they “shouldn’t” be treated as COVID cases. Sometimes it’s progressed and care is too little too late. New medicines are approved in longer times than other countries. So doubts concerning AZ vaccines meant they were kept in storage and those booked in (80yo+) couldn’t be vaccinated in sufficient numbers with the remaining Pfizer or Moderna doses. Teachers were vaccinated with AZ as they are younger (see PP about teachers). Only medical staff are permitted to give vaccines. No volunteers allowed. Pharmacies will be the next community vaccination points, not huge exhibition centers like in the UK. Triage problems. Ambulances with one suspected COVID case on board are kept waiting 4+ hours outside emergency units (see above). Due to lack of facilities (and criminally slow buying of funded equipment) COVID patients are placed in rooms with other patients until a place is found in a Sub-IC or IC unit.

Vaccines are now being coordinated by a General from the Italian Army. Hopefully this will streamline things. Italian people ARE following lockdown and social distancing but schools were open until recently and people still go to work. The curfew is to make socializing of any sort Illegal. There are strict rules about visiting and we knew our Christmas socializing was going to be reduced we’ll in advance (not like the ludicrous 3-family idea in the UK which was then revoked).
I personally take offence at the anti-European sentiments on this thread. Nobody is going to beat this virus, we’re all trying to cope with it. But some posters want the UK to be seen as “winning”. It’s really not.

No country is winning in this. Covid is globally shite. Not sure which posters want to infer that the UK is "winning". Not sure, either, whether the cultural factors and protocols you refer to also apply to France, Germany and the rest of the EU, who are in the same boat as Italy.

I think - and I speak as a sceptic of basically everything - that the vaccine actually works. So those countries with a faster rollout are going to see a quicker turnaround.

AuldAlliance · 20/03/2021 18:54

God bless them. Although not sure why they elected Macron.
Really?
Quite simply because the alternative was unthinkable for so many, so they held their noses and voted for the least worst of two very bad options.
That is also how Chirac was elected in 2002, despite so many people being deeply opposed to his politics and person.
It's kind of odd, commenting so freely on something you know so little about.

The increasing and very jumbled anti-EU/anti-European/anti-French sentiment on threads like these, often with a clear streak of xenophobic nationalism running right through it, is deeply distasteful. "I go on holiday there, so I can't be anti-French" seems to be a bit like a new MN version of "I have black friends".

PersimmonTree · 20/03/2021 18:58

@AuldAlliance

God bless them. Although not sure why they elected Macron. Really? Quite simply because the alternative was unthinkable for so many, so they held their noses and voted for the least worst of two very bad options. That is also how Chirac was elected in 2002, despite so many people being deeply opposed to his politics and person. It's kind of odd, commenting so freely on something you know so little about.

The increasing and very jumbled anti-EU/anti-European/anti-French sentiment on threads like these, often with a clear streak of xenophobic nationalism running right through it, is deeply distasteful. "I go on holiday there, so I can't be anti-French" seems to be a bit like a new MN version of "I have black friends".

K no need to patronise. Not living in France I genuinely did want to know why they voted for macron. If they had a clinton-trump, corbyn-johnson type thing going on then fair enough, it's crystal clear. Thanks for the withering elucidation.
EileenGC · 20/03/2021 19:19

"I go on holiday there, so I can't be anti-French" seems to be a bit like a new MN version of "I have black friends".

Beautifully put. MN in a nutshell.

notimagain · 20/03/2021 19:24

@AuldAlliance

God bless them. Although not sure why they elected Macron. Really? Quite simply because the alternative was unthinkable for so many, so they held their noses and voted for the least worst of two very bad options. That is also how Chirac was elected in 2002, despite so many people being deeply opposed to his politics and person. It's kind of odd, commenting so freely on something you know so little about.

The increasing and very jumbled anti-EU/anti-European/anti-French sentiment on threads like these, often with a clear streak of xenophobic nationalism running right through it, is deeply distasteful. "I go on holiday there, so I can't be anti-French" seems to be a bit like a new MN version of "I have black friends".

Well said AA
Sunshinegirl82 · 20/03/2021 19:29

@notrub

I'm guessing when you watched I, Robot you were on the side of the robots?

No regime that welds people into their homes should be held up as something to aspire to. There is a balance between protection of life and the protection of free will. As far as I'm concerned China have the balance very, very wrong.

Northernsoullover · 20/03/2021 19:44

I really didn't intend this to be a thread to slate other countries. I thought other places were actually doing a lot better. I guess we are all fucking up in different ways.

OP posts:
psychomath · 20/03/2021 20:13

FALSE- Go look at the date he messaged his colleagues and then look at the date China told the WHO they had a novel viral outbreak.

Which bit is false? I looked up the dates, and China told the WHO about the viral outbreak the day after Li Wenliang messaged his colleagues. I'm not sure how this invalidates the idea that he tried to warn people, or that they arrested him.

False - the first variant of sars-cov-2 wasn't H2H transmittable. 93 initial cases ALL the contacts family were isolated and tested repeatedly and none ever tested +ve. The virus mutated into a more H2H transmittable form - this is all well documented now - sad you still believe this Trump crap.

Well I didn't get it from Trump, but if I was wrong about that part then I'm happy to be corrected if you have a link. I googled after reading your reply but couldn't find clear information about when human-to-human transmission emerged (could be I just used the wrong search terms). It did bring up another article where Chinese medics explicitly claim they were told to lie about it, though.

As for the rest of your rant - rather irrelevant really since it pertains to the actions of individuals NOT the overall approach from China.

The forced quarantine was certainly part of the overall approach, and I assumed part of what you were praising. I'm unclear as to why you think that failing to introduce legislation around wet markets and 'disappearing' journalists is the action of isolated individuals rather than the Chinese government.

If you'd been in charge of China, millions would have died - it takes a special kind of person to believe that that's a better outcome.

There's a lot of reasons why it would be a very bad idea to put me, personally, in charge of all of China, but I'm not convinced millions would have died. My point was that authoritarian regimes are bad and being dismissive of that fact is also bad, not that the UK got everything right and I'd have done exactly the same. There are plenty of countries who've had proportionally fewer deaths than us, and several of them don't brutally repress their populations.

I also think singing the praises of an authoritarian regime from the comfort of a Western democracy, then dismissing points about serious human rights abuses by that regime as irrelevant ranting, is pretty disrespectful to the people who risked their freedom to get information out near the beginning, tbh. That's the main reason why I get angry when people rewrite history to rave about how amazingly well the Chinese government handled everything, and the only reason I bother to reply to those posts in the first place.

Gerla · 20/03/2021 20:46

@sgtmajormummy I agree with everything you said except this Pharmacies will be the next community vaccination points, not huge exhibition centers like in the UK.

I have an appointment for my vaccination next week at an exhibition centre. Hope they'll be medical staff though!

AuldAlliance · 20/03/2021 20:49

Northernsoullover
I'm sure that wasn't your intention.
It's sadly a common trope on MN right now.

Yes, everyone is fucking up in their own way and has done over the last year.

I watched Covid unfurl from China to Italy and over the border to where I am in France, and I was one of those people lots of folk thought were a bit OTT about it originally when it was being compared to the flu. My thoughts throughout have run along the lines of "thank fuck I'm not running a country": there is blame to be ascribed for the running down of pandemic preparation plans, but there is no easy way to juggle protecting the population, providing healthcare for all and keeping the economy afloat in such a globalised and already fraught world.

Also, countries are just not comparable, in terms of population, geography, borders, healthcare systems, cultural norms, etc., even when they are relatively close by, and the virus is a crafty, mutating bugger, so what works at one point may well not work a month or so down the line. EU states are all doing things differently and facing their own problems, as is the UK.

Once you add to that already tricky mixture a whole range of existing tensions and prejudices, exacerbated by Brexit and the dire quality of the UK media (even if you avoid the tabloid/Telegraph shitemill, the BBC is just a joke nowadays and most broadsheets seem to have mediocre journalists at best in EU countries), it's not hard to see how hate gets whipped up.

Macron is not someone I am inclined to defend, but I find it offensive that British MNers feel free to make comments condescendingly blessing the souls of French citizens when enough (not a majority, but - due to FPTP - still enough) UK voters elected an inveterate liar, spineless weathercock puppet and obvious political incompetent to be PM at such a vital time. Johnson/Corbyn is by no means comparable to Le Pen/Macron in the way it was meant on this thread (the order in my pairings is deliberate: Johnson is far closer to Le Pen than either of the other two) and the passing of the anti-protest bill merely highlights how the UK is sliding closer towards a fascist state without many people noticing.

yellowspanner · 20/03/2021 21:36

I am quite happy to stand by what I said about the vaccine roll out in the EU and particularly France. It's not political, xenophobic or nationalistic.
It is a fact that the EU were late ordering the vaccine. They admitted as such.
And Macron's utterances about the Oxford/AZ vaccine did a lot of harm.

Non of this has anything to do with the situation in the UK but I note those who live in the EU are jumping in to criticise our Government, our newspapers, the BBC and the way the population of the UK voted.
🤷‍♀️

Hopeandglory · 20/03/2021 22:00

I would have thought that the only way to see the impact that c19 has made is through the excess deaths of each country. As every country has a different reporting system it is impossible to fairly assess like for like. Some countries have faired better due to the fact that their overall expected life expectancy is lower than others.

The one thing that I question is why the cremitoriums in Wuhan were running 24/7 prior to December 19 and they were recruiting staff to man them

notimagain · 20/03/2021 22:45

@yellowspanner

Non of this has anything to do with the situation in the UK but I note those who live in the EU are jumping in to criticise our Government,

Actually more than a few have pointed how well the UK vaccination program has gone.

our newspapers, the BBC

If your newspapers and broadcast media are feeding you a more than sightly biased or very selective version of events happening overseas (which does appear to have been happening at times over the last few days ) then darn right they should be criticised... surely the UK voting population you mentioned want to be honestly informed?

AuldAlliance · 20/03/2021 23:27

yellowspanner
It's hard to know what you are standing by, since that was your first post on the thread.

The example of vaccine rollout is a good illustration of what I was trying to underline:
The UK is ideally placed to vaccinate, because it has, in the NHS, a centralised health service that few other countries can rival. Chronic underinvestment and the current gvmt's selling off of sections of it to US providers notwithstanding.
Countries where healthcare is fragmented and multi-layered are far less able to vaccinate on a similar scale, as the infrastructure does not exist. It is even harder if their populations are inherently wary of centralised authority and past examples of health scandals (contaminated blood & Mercator, to quote but 2 French examples) exacerbate those fears.

The UK gambled on AZ and on on how flexible it could be with regard to the gap between first and second doses (hence why figures on vaccination rates are to be analysed closely: UK figures show those having received 1 dose, while many other countries don't consider someone vaccinated until after their 2nd dose). That gamble paid off, luckily. If it hadn't (and scientists worldwide were sceptical), things would have been very different. They remain uncertain due to the rise of variants, so crowing about such matters may or may not be justified.

Yes, Macron's comments on AZ were very ill-judged, like some of his other remarks, but it was true, at the time he commented, that AZ had not tested its vaccine on over-65s. His remarks may well have delayed AZ provision, but France is not reliant on AZ the way the UK is. And in any case, because of the cultural context I mentioned earlier, delaying, although not his first choice, was inevitable once other EU states began to do so and was more likely to reassure French citizens than just continuing regardless when there began to be cases of unusual blood clotting in younger vaccinated adults. Against the backdrop of French attitudes to vaccines, that would have been more damaging.

The BBC has become a government mouthpiece and I have written to the UK press about several articles on a range of issues relating to French politics over the last 15 or so years, leading them more than once to correct their inaccurate reporting. That is what underpins my remarks on the UK media. As for the Daily Mail, Telegraph, etc., their bias and failings are obvious.

The majority of UK voters didn't vote for the current PM. My comments on the obvious flaws in his track record are therefore not to be read as a general criticism of the electorate. The fact that he is nonetheless PM is, however, hardly a ringing endorsement of British democracy.

justasking111 · 20/03/2021 23:59

My family is in China, they did as they were told, didn't leave the house for two months in an area where covid cases very low. They have masks, temperature checking outside shops an app which blocks them and reports them if they're deemed ill. It's Draconian but worked. They swoop in if it looks as if there may be an outbreak

Thejoyfulstar · 21/03/2021 00:19

@StepOutOfLine Masks outdoors have been mandatory outside for a while though? Genuinely wonderful why you say they havent been?

donewithitalltodayandxmas · 21/03/2021 00:23

@AuldAlliance why are you so invested in british politics and who the leader is if you don't live in the uk

ConeHat · 21/03/2021 00:23

China has a much more compliant population. The reasons that the population is compliant is partly due to a fear that us Brits will never be able to comprehend. So its impossible to compare us and them. If you could be forced into a abortion at 30+ weeks of a wanted and healthy baby or you knew that it happened in England you would shit your pants about the though of being caught driving to the beach. Maybe we need to execute a few people and then everyone would fall into line and those 140,000 wouldnt be dead.

Hands up to volunteer for forced abortion at term or execution for unpaid council tax? Gang rape for being a Muslim? Come on! Take one for the greater good. Take one for the team! To fucking right I wouldnt dare fart on my own toilet in perfect China.