What is happening in France (and Italy)

[Northernsoullover]

Does anyone know why their cases are soaring? I know that areas of France and Italy are back in lockdown but does that mean they had limited restrictions before? I have googled but wondered if there were any resident mumsnetters who might be able to shed some light?

I seriously can't understand what's gone on with vaccination in Europe. It's just completely unacceptable how badly they've failed so far.

@Ladderclimber

I seriously can't understand what's gone on with vaccination in Europe. It's just completely unacceptable how badly they've failed so far.

They haven't failed. They're going slower (. Whilst maintaining lower cases and deaths than the UK. Do you also think Cambodia, Peru or Zimbabwe have failed? It's annoying, but hardly a failure, 2 months in. Let's see where everyone is next year, or in 5, and then we can start making statements.

What elements of their handling of the pandemic do you most admire?

Widespread testing to get areas out of lockdown. Widespread masking from the start. Paying people properly to self isolate. Providing proper quarantine facilities. Closing the borders both internationally and between regions. There was a lot they did which we could have done, which would have helped but didn’t slip into their more questionable government control tactics.

I did say 'so far'. And they definitely have failed so far. It's been a shambles. Most of Europe is far wealthier than the countries you mentioned, as you well know, with far better infrastructure. They should have been BEYOND ready for this.

The hand gel is covid theatre and makes no difference to infection rates (though it might reduce the incidence of norovirus)

Ditto the 6 times a day hand washing in DD’s primary school whilst they sit 30 strong, unmasked in a poorly ventilated classroom. Practically every kid got a cold when they first returned, proving the theatre was doing little to spread airborne bugs.

@Ladderclimber

I seriously can't understand what's gone on with vaccination in Europe. It's just completely unacceptable how badly they've failed so far.

Depends what you mean by "Europe"..

If you mean the EU, "they" were responsible for vaccine procurement so they are responsible any failures of supply into Europe..

Downstream of that each nation state has it's own health system and is responsible for it's own vaccination program, so for example the reasons for any supposed failings in e.g. France (supply aside) will be different to the reasons for any failings in e.g. Germany.

Paris has been pretty rubbish about working from home - most companies I work with seem to have expected employees to work in the office even though they could wfh quite easily (real culture of presenteeism) so I suspect public transport will have been pretty full as a result.

My friend’s family live in France. Kids have been in school, after school activities and snowboard camps etc still on. They’re quite rural but apparently the local villages are very ‘anti-mask’ and believe covid is a hoax telling children not to wear them on the school bus etc. Lots of village WhatsApp groups forwarding anti- vax info too.

@Ladderclimber

I seriously can't understand what's gone on with vaccination in Europe. It's just completely unacceptable how badly they've failed so far.

That's trading blocs for you. Doesn't matter if you think it's unacceptable, it is what it is, the UK got in there first with its deal, Pfizer & Co can only produce a certain number vaccines at a time, and everyone else will have to suck it up and carry on. If every EU country had a third of its population vaccinated, this summer would be looking very very different.

Of course the EU have failed in their vaccine roll out.
First Macron says it's quasi ineffective.
Then it's not suitable for over 65s
Then they suspend it.
Now it's not suitable for the under 55s.
Which bit isn't a failure.

@Ladderclimber

I did say 'so far'. And they definitely have failed so far. It's been a shambles. Most of Europe is far wealthier than the countries you mentioned, as you well know, with far better infrastructure. They should have been BEYOND ready for this.

The UK is also wealthier than many countries, including some of the EU, and has a death rate of double that of other nations with similar restrictions. Is that also a shambles and a failure?

What's more desirable, 2k deaths per 1m population over 18 months - and everyone fully vaccinated by then. Or 1k deaths per 1m population over 24 months - when the other country is fully vaccinated. These are the numbers we're looking at when you compare current death + vaccination rates in the UK vs another country in the EU.

It might take 6 months longer, but the UK will still have had more deaths and cases overall. I don't think either of those approaches can be called a failure. They're both wealthy countries and one of them has not been able to avoid as many deaths.

Btw I'm not referring to every single country in the EU here. Some, such as the Czech Rep, has similar dates to the UK.

But the reality is, the UK very badly needed a vaccine so early on, because their numbers were so much worse already, and I can't imagine how high they would've gotten without the vaccine being rolled out in Dec.

have and rates.... bloody autocorrect!

very useful insights here especially @Lostinacloud thank you am intrigued at the situation in France as really hoping to get back there later this year.
The whole curfew thing I find odd. I mean I'm not sure what the risk is in keeping the supermarket open for a few extra hours as that surely means it will be less busy if open over a longer period of time. Surely you don't want a big rush at 5.30 pm.

if you're going for a walk what's the harm in going after 6pm when presumably it's less busy?
I guess its to discourage parties etc but are people just having their parties earlier in the day? Odd - fairly sure the risk of catching covid after 6pm don't change.
It makes no sense to me!

I've never quite understood what the curfews are supposed to achieve. Yes, it means everything is quieter during the actual curfew but surely it makes shops etc busier during the shorter opening times.

Where possible I've shopped in the evening rather than during the day. Tesco after 9pm is generally very quiet so it's much easier to distance and shop quickly.

Exactly the same thinking Frazzled2207

I think the curfew is meant to stop mixing in houses after 6, and people can't really meet earlier as work won't have finished. They can't legally stop people mixing in their houses but they can fine them if they're out without a valid reason after 6pm. So unless you stay over, there's a risk of being fined as you won't have a valid reason when you're heading home after meeting up.

In my village, I walk the dog around 9pm each night and there is no one out. I have no idea how effective it is in bigger cities and how much it is enforced.

France is a very similar country to Spain and Italy in terms of lifestyle. We’re big on socialising and are on the streets, talking to people, meeting family and friends non stop. Most of these happens in the evenings. Kids finish school at 4-5pm and that’s when it all becomes busy. Streets are heaving at 6-7pm. Bedtimes don’t happen until 9pm or even later, and it’s normal to have dinner out on a weekday.

A 6pm curfew means you go straight back home after work. Restaurants are closing earlier, so people have less of a chance of eating out together, but they don’t go completely out of business as they’re open during the day and still have some clients. Non-essential shops are closing earlier, so it doesn’t get that busy. Teens aren’t gathering in big groups everywhere after school as there’s a curfew. It does help, a little. You’re not restricted from socialising, but you’re not allowed to do it during most people’s free time. Therefore, most people haven’t had the chance to socialise even if they wanted to.

@TheVampiresWife

Not a resident but have a friend in Italy (near Naples). They had an incredibly strict lockdown last year, she couldn't leave her house even for exercise, essential shopping/work/medical care only. She very much feels that the current problems they're having are down to the UK variant in part but mainly the ridiculously slow rollout of vaccines there. She's in her sixties but doesn't expect to get the vaccine until autumn at the earliest.

She feels that 😂

I reckon every country is going to find their own unique formula to getting the pandemic response wrong. Aussies abroad can't go home, Chinese impose a constant surveillance state that even their authorities find too burdensome, Brazil health care system in meltdown, Americans pretend it isn't happening, etc.

@EileenGC some eu countries have a worse death rate per million capita than the uk and some are not far behind, europe as a whole as generally been hit very badly

B117. Only the strictest of lockdowns can control that bastard. The UK knows that. Ireland knows that, and the rest of the world will soon learn that apart from the few countries who have managed to get ahead with vaccines.

As someone who started following it closely from just after NY, ALL OF IT lol.

Let's face it, the UK had well over 2 months to prepare and we didn't even come close to dealing with it as well.

All of it, @notrub? You mean the part where they didn't introduce any kind of regulation of the wet markets after SARS, or H5N1, or the numerous warnings from scientists that they were breeding grounds for potential future pandemics? Where they arrested the doctor who first tried to warn other people? Where they arrested software developers for trying to keep an accurate record of the pandemic so it couldn't be whitewashed by censors, and several citizen journalists mysteriously disappeared after reporting from Wuhan in the early days? (Fang Bin is still missing, after being arrested over a year ago.) Where a woman was sentenced to four years in prison, after being restrained for 24 hours a day and tube fed, for the crime of interviewing citizens of Wuhan and uploading the footage to youtube before the government had fully acknowledged that they were facing a disaster? Where the government lied about human-to-human transmission and refused information to the WHO? Where government officials dragged people out of their homes and forced them to quarantine centres, welded people into their - or other people's - houses, and forcibly separated toddlers and babies from their parents? (The latter is still happening in Hong Kong, incidentally.) Where officials left a disabled teenager to die while his father begged for help on social media, because he'd been forced into quarantine after running a fever and in the meantime no-one in charge bothered to feed his son?

All of it, 'lol'.

Brazils numbers are just awful...going to result in so many deaths...

@Frazzled2207 I agree, the curfew is a strange one. It is hoped that it will discourage indoor mixing because it is more difficult to get back home again later than 6pm if you’ve not previously been out for an authorised reason, like you have been working or collecting children from childcare settings. But, it’s really tough on dual working parents because it leaves only the weekend for grocery shopping. It also results in crazy busy supermarkets at 5.30pm each evening. Anecdotally, I see on the ground that it results in people still mixing but arranging to stay the night instead.
In honesty it has not been of much note during the winter months but it will become much more of a restriction if it continues on into the lighter evenings and warmer weather.