Ireland halting the use of the AstraZeneca vaccine

[Kaylasmum49]

This just came up on my phone. I had the AZ vaccine 10 days ago. I'm concerned about the news of blood clotting issues.

[quote Return2thebasic]**@WitchesBritchesPumpkinPants, the EU took their time to approve vaccines because of the low confidence in vaccinations in general within the population. If you want to convince people to take it, you need to show you took your time following the proper procedure to examine the trial data and the vaccine itself and making the decision not in a rush. Unlike in the UK, a large population in several European countries don't trust vaccine and believe it's unnatural and does harm to people.

To say the European government want to discredit Astrazanica vaccine because of the Briexit is completely nonsense. You are talking with a limited view influenced by the media.[/quote]
I think there's definitely a discrediting campaign against AZ based on the fact that it's the only vaccine that's being sold at a cost, while all others are being sold at a profit. It's not conspiratorial to say that Big Pharma may be pulling some strings here.

[quote Return2thebasic]**@WitchesBritchesPumpkinPants, the EU took their time to approve vaccines because of the low confidence in vaccinations in general within the population. If you want to convince people to take it, you need to show you took your time following the proper procedure to examine the trial data and the vaccine itself and making the decision not in a rush. Unlike in the UK, a large population in several European countries don't trust vaccine and believe it's unnatural and does harm to people.

To say the European government want to discredit Astrazanica vaccine because of the Briexit is completely nonsense. You are talking with a limited view influenced by the media.[/quote]
Yeah, most European countries are super skeptical about flu shots, this is an even harder sell for them

@Silverandgoldsparkles

There are not many who willingly will parade in for a shot which they know is going to cause them usually, at least some short time side effects. The government have pressed on with endorsing it and making us feel like chimps for not obeying the science, or them.

I'm just taking my time before I rush to get it.

Well that's just not true, is it, given that millions of people have had the vaccination, many of them thrilled to have it, knowing that they will have some short term effects. For me, having a sore arm for a couple of days and being a bit tired is considerably preferable to actually having had Covid: I was ill for months, had fatigue for several months, was breathless for six months, had sore throat, cough, had thicker blood than usual (normally my blood flows out but when I did a blood test, it was really hard to produce enough) which could well make me more prone to clots, had diarrhoea for a week too.

That's fine for you not to have it. But you've proven the psychological case that people assess risk in weird ways. The chance of serious ill effects with Covid are much higher than the vaccine. But you're focusing on the negatives of the vaccine rather than the virus. Curious.

It's like measles. There is a 1-2 in a thousand risk of death from measles. And an almost 0 chance of death from the vaccine (it has only caused death in immunocrompromised children) and yet people don't have the vaccine. As I say, a strange assessment of risk.

@Circumlocutious, out of curiosity, how does this work? Please shed some light. Do the pharmaceutical pay the media or they pay the government so they create hurdles to AZ? Or they hire people faking posts online?

I have had a look at the AZ info and have found that in the UK between 4/01/21 and 28/02/21 there the following cases related to thrombosis (thromboses?) have been reported

one death from cerebral thrombosis
three cases of Cerebrovascular venous and sinus thrombosis
four cases of Non-site specific embolism and thrombosis
fourteen cases of DVT and five cases of other Peripheral embolism and thrombosis
two cases of Retinal bleeding and vascular disorders (excl retinopathy)

So 34 cases one of which resulted in death doesn't seem to me to be a huge cause for concern considering how many millions of vaccination have been administered and how those figures must stack up in terms of comparison of the incidence rate in the general population?

Disclaimer: I am not a medic so may have misunderstood what I am looking at!

Looking at the UK data - it seems likely that in the EU which has vaccinated more with Pfizer, there would be a small number of blood clots with the Pfizer vaccine.

What actions are being taken here? What abundance of caution?

I think the risks are unknown as yet. I'm not rushing to the top of the queue to get it. I'll wait politely behind lol to ensure that everyone doesn't suddenly start dropping like flies.

@Silverandgoldsparkles WTF are you on about? Millions of people in the UK have had the AZ vaccine and AREN’T suddenly dropping like flies.

prevalence of clots (DVT and pulmonary (lung)) in UK 1-2 per 1000

prevalence of clots in hospitalised patients with Covid 19 about 28 per 100 (higher in ICU)...that's 280 per 1000

prevalence of clots in population at home with covid, unknown. But we are admitting people in the month afteer they have had covid 19 at home with clots .....and on a daily basis so....common?? how common.

Number of confirmed clots post vaccine in Europe 30/5 million, this would appear to be lower than the prevalence in the normal population...but obviously still requires investigating.

On balance for myself the risk from covid 19 is high for clots, high for death, high for long covid ...therefore , for me the benefit of the vaccine exceeds the small risk.

I guess everyone has to make this decision for themselves, I just hope everyone can weigh the facts not the hype

@pinkearedcow, fro. The news reports, it sounds the age of the patients came in play, with mostly under 50. Also we've been comparing the millions of doses administered in the UK with those just rolled out in the EU. The no. of doses are relatively small , hence the no. of sudden cases caused attention.

I have a blood clot disorder that I choose not to medicate for (it’s complicated). I had the AstraZeneca Vaccine and was not even slightly concerned about getting a clot. Blood clots can be caused because of all sorts of risk factors. DVTs can occur from being incredibly sedentary (like being on a long haul flight or watching hours of Netflix at a time!). It will be absolutely impossible to interpret any blood clot data as being linked explicitly to the vaccine as so many elderly people or those shielding have been incredibly inactive due to lock down and shielding. Medical advice issued to me personally was to stay moving and stay fit and active, not to avoid getting the vaccine. You can reduce your risk of getting clots by staying fit and healthy. Refusing the vaccine on this basis is crazy.

If it's all "hype" and a non issue as so many here claim why are the Irish Government (BTW we are desperate to get more supply here so not at all interested in undermining the vaccine) and Norwegian government halting until they investigate the supposed "non issue"?
Genuinely wondering as at this stage we need to get on with it so if it's such a tiny risk as I'm sure there are tiny risks with any vaccine wtf are they doing this? So many here seem dismissive of what they are doing like almost ridiculing the decision..

@pinkearedcow

I have had a look at the AZ info and have found that in the UK between 4/01/21 and 28/02/21 there the following cases related to thrombosis (thromboses?) have been reported

one death from cerebral thrombosis
three cases of Cerebrovascular venous and sinus thrombosis
four cases of Non-site specific embolism and thrombosis
fourteen cases of DVT and five cases of other Peripheral embolism and thrombosis
two cases of Retinal bleeding and vascular disorders (excl retinopathy)

So 34 cases one of which resulted in death doesn't seem to me to be a huge cause for concern considering how many millions of vaccination have been administered and how those figures must stack up in terms of comparison of the incidence rate in the general population?

Disclaimer: I am not a medic so may have misunderstood what I am looking at!

For comparison stats for Pfizer report period 9/12/20 and 28/02/21

one case of cerebrovascular venous and sinus thrombosis
seventeen cases of Pulmonary thrombotic and embolic conditions
eleven cases of Non-site specific embolism and thrombosis
eight cases of DVT and eight cases of other Peripheral embolism and thrombosis
two cases of Vena caval embolism and thrombosis

@Sooverthis1, any governing bodies are liable. So they can't/don't want to afford to take the risk. People like us talk, without that layer of responsibility.

The yellow card system is in place so these things do get investigated.

However....if you were having an operation the surgeon would consent you discussing the risks of having AND not having the surgery. In this case the possible risk of the vaccine appears to be being discussed without the balancing argument of the risk of contracting covid. To make a judgement every person needs both arguments...otherwise it is just hype.

@Sooverthis1

If it's all "hype" and a non issue as so many here claim why are the Irish Government (BTW we are desperate to get more supply here so not at all interested in undermining the vaccine) and Norwegian government halting until they investigate the supposed "non issue"? Genuinely wondering as at this stage we need to get on with it so if it's such a tiny risk as I'm sure there are tiny risks with any vaccine wtf are they doing this? So many here seem dismissive of what they are doing like almost ridiculing the decision..

I don't think anyone is ridiculing the decision, people are just trying to understand what is happening - especially as France, Spain and Germany all seem to be happy to keep using AZ.

I am quite sceptical about this and i think it's quite convenient as I know many European governments are struggling with lack of supply of all vaccines. The statement by the WHO gives me confidence on this one.
At the end of the day, routine procedures like knee replacement, childbirth and even taking the contraceptive pill among others can cause blood clots.

@Sooverthis1

If it's all "hype" and a non issue as so many here claim why are the Irish Government (BTW we are desperate to get more supply here so not at all interested in undermining the vaccine) and Norwegian government halting until they investigate the supposed "non issue"? Genuinely wondering as at this stage we need to get on with it so if it's such a tiny risk as I'm sure there are tiny risks with any vaccine wtf are they doing this? So many here seem dismissive of what they are doing like almost ridiculing the decision..

They may need to look for other common factors, not just the vaccine. Without knowing every country's normal processes it's hard to say if this is the best course of action, in Norway it's usual whereas UK MHRA engage more in trials and have efficient yellow card reporting so that works here. I don't know about other posters, but I wouldn't ridicule them for looking into any reported side effects. At the same time, I do think it's important to be clear that we have figures to show that whatever this is (normal rate or some issue), it doesn't seem to be an issue we have in the UK so people don't need to feel concerned about it for themselves.

I am quite sceptical about this and i think it's quite convenient as I know many European governments are struggling with lack of supply of all vaccines.

Interesting take.

I understand that but if the risk is in fact so minimal as everyone is suggesting why would the government and health officials take such a stance in view of an ever increasing infection rate and sinking further of economy. It just doesn't make sense.

[quote Return2thebasic]**@pinkearedcow, fro. The news reports, it sounds the age of the patients came in play, with mostly under 50. Also we've been comparing the millions of doses administered in the UK with those just rolled out in the EU. The no. of doses are relatively small , hence the no. of sudden cases caused attention.[/quote]
Oh that's interesting. And yes you are right that the numbers will be very different.

I think I am partly trying to convince myself not to be worried!

@Sooverthis1, again, it might be to do with the general skepticism in the large population in vaccinations (any kind vaccine). The atmosphere in the societies are different. Here most of people can't wait to have it, whilst in Europe you can have 40% don't trust vaccine in a normal day. While in a pandemic, they might be leaning to have it, but if they find the governing body shove concerns under the carpet without proper looking into it, these large population would rather wait for "a better vaccine" or not have any at all. People need to understand the different attitude on vaccine drives the decision making to certain extent.

@pinkearedcow, DH just had the vaccine ten minutes ago (being contacted due to chronic health issue). So I'm really fingers crossed!

@Sooverthis1 from what I can gather from RTE and online, confidence in AZ is quite low, possibly due to the fannying about with approval initially, possibly other reasons, and then these suspensions were reported so Ireland also decided to suspend, pending investigation, to raise confidence in the vaccine.... or something along those lines. Twitter is full of these

@Sooverthis1

I understand that but if the risk is in fact so minimal as everyone is suggesting why would the government and health officials take such a stance in view of an ever increasing infection rate and sinking further of economy. It just doesn't make sense.

Part of that is because the UK is a very pro vaccine country. We, our governments and health system all value them, get them as required and live with the datasets that include those who have side effects and unrelated health issues.

Many EU countries are not as pro vaccine and don't have the underlying familiarity with the concomitant issues.

So their politicians and health organizations don't have the same relationship with that data, let alone the general public.

The anti Europe/conspiracies are so tiresome. Posters are insisting on blocking out and minimising any negative press about AZ and willing everyone else to do the same. Blissful ignorance.
I’m saying this as someone who has had AZ only this week and wish I hadn’t!