Employer disadvantaging and threatening staff who haven’t had the vaccine

[MrsFCastle]

My partner works in health and social care. He isn’t an anti vaxxer. Just feels it’s too soon. His employer is furious and is threatening to stop offering shifts if they don’t get it. I’m genuinely concerned about his job security. Can they do this? Helpful replies only please. This isn’t a thread about anti/pro vax.

I also think this is going to be common place, many people are not going to want to work with unvaccinated people. I said it months ago this would happen on another thread.

The government are looking at it now, becayse there are legal implications. Really complicated ones. Can you say someone is not fit to work if they pose an increased risk to others and can you fire them.

I think that many people will be fired before that happens. And if the ops partner doesn’t get a vaccine he will be one of them very shortly.

Whilst completely illegal to do, there are employers out there who will do everything possible to force employees to leave whilst not doing anything that would stand up in a tribunal.

It depends what the legally ruling is. I don't think it's been decided yet.

@FuzzyTurquoise

Whilst completely illegal to do, there are employers out there who will do everything possible to force employees to leave whilst not doing anything that would stand up in a tribunal.

It’s not necessarily illegal. That’s being reviewed now. If someone is shown to prove an increased health risk to others then it could be perfectly legal to not allow them into thr work place. It’s not been answered yet, and it’s not an easy one.

Before the law is confirmed then, as said, a lot of anti vaxxers like the ops partner will lose their jobs.

They will also struggle with other issues, where they may be denied entrance to many things, or even transportation etc.

Deciding it’s “too soon” is going to come with a very very heavy price.

@Mammyloveswine

Ffs I'm a teacher (and I've been working throughout with nursery children before anyone chimes in)..

I'd crawl on my hands and knees to get the vaccine!

I have no ppe, no social distancing and it's a matter of time before I get covid.

Your partner is being an idiot. What on Earth does he mean by "it's too soon?" Ffs.

I'll have his dose.

Great level of discourse from a teacher, thank you for your intelligent input to this thread about legal concerns over mandatory vaccinations in health/care work ... you sound really understanding, level headed, and empathetic ...

Why not just be grateful you can get a dose sooner without resorting to insults.

Mantra: It's not a crime for some people to want to wait a bit longer for their vaccinations.

This doesn't need to be a war; we're all on the same side.

www.rcn.org.uk/covid-19/rcn-position/whether-staff-must-have-the-covid-19-vaccine

The amount of misinformation on this thread is shocking.

Bluntness - fearmongering and inflammatory

@reformedcharacters

www.rcn.org.uk/covid-19/rcn-position/whether-staff-must-have-the-covid-19-vaccine

The amount of misinformation on this thread is shocking.

Useful, thank you.

Quote from the link (Royal College of Nursing for those who don't know):

:The RCN does not support mandating vaccination to staff. Staff vaccination should not be used as part of staff contracts, terms and conditions of employment or linked to pay.

The RCN advocate a similar approach and policy position for any COVID-19 vaccine. We welcome the vaccines being made available to all health and care staff and encourage all RCN members to take up the offer of vaccination as soon as they can. Employers are responsible across all settings to make sure their staff know how and where to go to access the vaccine"

@animalfarmagain

Sounds like only mandatory for certain health jobs (EPP)? Sounds like it would depend on the specifics of the OP's partner's job.

FWIW I've worked (as a volunteer breastfeeding peer supporter in the 2000s) in the NHS - in close contact with babies and new mums - and although I had to complete occ health forms and attend training and pass modules (eg hand washing etc) my vaccination status was never checked.

The parallel I’m trying to draw is that it currently is mandatory for certain health professionals to have certain vaccines.

So it’s not a stretch to say this may be expanded to making covid vaccine mandatory....though I suspect it could only be for new staff. Not existing staff.

The RCN may not support vaccinations being tied to employment contracts but as people have explained they are frequently in real life.
This may not something that can be applied retroactively for staff already in employment for over two years.
But it is a routine part of work in this sector.

reformed a model of restrain there from the RCN I found employers may consider ‘Redeploying them to lower risk areas’ very i retesting. In many
Clinical situations there won’t be a lower risk area necessarily for eg nursing staff. Then a whole can of worms about terms and conditions and staffing etc etc all arise. Hmmm very very tricky.

Being pro vaccine and encouraging vaccine uptake is one thing, but this thread has shown that there is a deliberate attempt to spread the myth that care jobs will require mandatory vaccination - it simply isn't so.

Vaccination requirements clearly differ between countries and also between specific medical professions, but on the whole vaccinations do not appear to be a current requirement in the health profession in the UK.

And just because someone works in healthcare, it does not mean that they should be bullied into a vaccine anymore than anyone else.

If your hypothetical care home resident doesn't want to be murdered by a particular unvaccinated carer (despite being vaccinated themselves) then the onus would be on the service user to find another carer, not for the carer to be 'sacked' (or not to be offered a job). Comments relating to these hypothetical care home residents are ubiquitous, tiresome and unproven.

Indeed Heron there could be some interesting legal developments over the next few years.

The RCN does not support mandating vaccination to staff. Staff vaccination should not be used as part of staff contracts, terms and conditions of employment or linked to pay

That’s a weak statement, even by RCN standards.

Covidcorvid - your experience and documents were v useful, thank you.

@animalfarmagain

Bluntness - fearmongering and inflammatory

It’s neither, it was even on the news tonight. Boris even made a comment on it saying it was complex and deep and they were looking at it now because so many employees were doing as the ops partner’s is. Many Employers are doing this now. There is nothing inflammatory or fear mongering about it.

@animalfarmagain, I’m guessing you don’t watch any of the news channels? Or listen to any comments Boris makes? Because this ones every where right now. And it might well be legal.

Keep up.

The crux of the matter is whether a court agrees with your employer when you take them to court over their insistence on mandatory vaccination. I don’t believe there is really any case law.if you are a registered professional then your professional body may investigate fitness to practice which is a separate thing but that’s not the case for carers.
I’m not sure if everyone here is aware that there’s a huge shortage of carers, it’s a very difficult and stressful job paid on minimum wage. Previously often done by EU migrants. the amount of comments ‘they’ll just sack him’ seem to suggest otherwise!
I think your partner just needs to consider how they’d feel if someone they were caring for caught covid from him, do his worries outweigh that?

[quote Bluntness100]@animalfarmagain, I’m guessing you don’t watch any of the news channels? Or listen to any comments Boris makes? Because this ones every where right now. And it might well be legal.

Keep up.[/quote]
Do you have a link? I’ve googled and can’t find anything recent on it? I found a piece in the FT from a couple of weeks ago but no comment from the PM.

I avoid the fearmongering and narrative pushing on the 'news', yes.

I avoid the BBC etc.

A pandemic is scary enough. The government have been ramping up the fear unnecessarily in my opinion (those dreadful adverts etc). They are also ramping up extra fear by pushing stories about not enough people getting vaccinated in certain areas. It's unnecessary of them to do that: it's divisive. Lots of people are keen to have the vaccine - people don't also need to be worried about who hasn't been vaccinated as it creates division. And people don't need to be worried additionally about jobs/vaccines because people have enough worries about their jobs at the moment.

Honestly - consider stop watching the press conferences, your life will be calmer for it! A quick look at MN tells you all the leaks that will happen. Plus the government will change their mind about everything anyway.

Disclaimer: if watching the news and the press conferences etc make you happy, carry on watching them .

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/147882/Green-Book-Chapter-12.pdf

The green book is the official government guidance on vaccinations.
There is a chapter about healthcare workers and lab workers specifically.

@BungleandGeorge

The crux of the matter is whether a court agrees with your employer when you take them to court over their insistence on mandatory vaccination. I don’t believe there is really any case law.if you are a registered professional then your professional body may investigate fitness to practice which is a separate thing but that’s not the case for carers. I’m not sure if everyone here is aware that there’s a huge shortage of carers, it’s a very difficult and stressful job paid on minimum wage. Previously often done by EU migrants. the amount of comments ‘they’ll just sack him’ seem to suggest otherwise! I think your partner just needs to consider how they’d feel if someone they were caring for caught covid from him, do his worries outweigh that?

Sensible response.

Maybe the OP's partner could take a PCR regularly.

I almost feel like the vaccinated employees might feel invincible and forget they could still transmit covid along with other seasonal viruses and germs. Ultimately, well-trained carers should be competent at preventing cross-contamination etc.

@endlesssnow

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/147882/Green-Book-Chapter-12.pdf

The green book is the official government guidance on vaccinations.
There is a chapter about healthcare workers and lab workers specifically.

Really useful source.

Quote (relating to duty of care)
"The most effective method for preventing laboratory-acquired infections is the adoption of safe working practices. Immunisation should never be regarded as a substitute for good laboratory practice, although it does provide additional protection."

Continuing from the previous link, quote (relating to staff involved in direct patient care):

"All staff should be up to date with their routine immunisations, e.g. tetanus, diphtheria, polio and MMR. The MMR vaccine is especially important in the context of the ability of staff to transmit measles or rubella infections to vulnerable groups. While healthcare workers may need MMR vaccination for their own benefit, they should also be immune to measles and rubella in order to assist in protecting patients. Satisfactory evidence of protection would include documentation of having received two doses of MMR or having had positive antibody tests for measles and rubella.

Selected vaccines

BCG
BCG vaccine is recommended for healthcare workers who may have close contact with infectious patients. It is particularly important to test and immunise staff working in maternity and paediatric departments and departments in which the patients are likely to be immunocompromised, e.g. transplant, oncology and HIV units (see Chapter 32 on TB).

Hepatitis B
Hepatitis B vaccination is recommended for healthcare workers who may have direct contact with patients’ blood or blood-stained body fluids. This includes any staff who are at risk of injury from blood-contaminated sharp instruments, or of being deliberately injured or bitten by patients. Antibody titres for hepatitis B should be checked one to four months after the completion of a primary course of vaccine. Such information allows appropriate decisions to be made concerning post-exposure prophylaxis following known or suspected exposure to the virus.

Influenza
Influenza immunisation helps to prevent influenza in staff and may also reduce the transmission of influenza to vulnerable patients. Influenza vaccination is therefore recommended for healthcare workers directly involved in patient care, who should be offered influenza immunisation on an annual basis.

Varicella
Varicella vaccine is recommended for susceptible healthcare workers who have direct patient contact. Those with a definite history of chickenpox or herpes zoster can be considered protected. Healthcare workers with a negative or uncertain history of chickenpox or herpes zoster should be serologically tested and vaccine only offered to those without the varicella zoster antibody."

So lots of 'shoulds' and 'recommended's but few 'musts'.

The moral/ethical issue is different, but I think it is really important to clarify what is currently expected - particularly when there is a lot of (wrong) assumptions stated on MN and other social media.

Hopefully the OP's partner will find this info useful!

I don't think it's the last time we'll hear about these issues over the next few months so it has been educating, thank you.

No they cannot enforce it but generally would look down on him. Where I worked the manager called everyone who didn't have it selfish. People stuck to there beliefs and some did not have it. I did have it and was very ill after it and lost a few days pay for it.
They should provide us with good ppe equipment and not supermarket face masks and plastic pinnys that rip easily. We are doing a highly risky job dealing with personal care.
The home I was in last year had a outbreak of covid and we were left with hardly any ppe. So we brought our own. The home stuck a money tin out asking for donations towards ppe which was ridiculous. A massive company to with 30 plus homes. Glad I left