Israel has done it: Freedom Badges for the vaccinated

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Green badges, let you go to restaurants, synagogues, swimming pools, shopping malls, etc.

I can't tell if the unvaxxed would be allowed to go to supermarket or send their kids to school.

@Sevensilverrings being coerced into a vaccine by depriving people of certain/rights or freedoms is forcing. If someone is immune because they have had the disease (as a huge proportion of the population have at this point) then how are they putting you at risk?

[quote bumbleymummy]@alittleprivacy how is someone a risk to you if they’re immune because they were previously infected?[/quote]
We have absolutely no full idea about the quality and length of immunity from previous infection. I almost certainly had the virus in March. I act like I didn't because I don't want to risk anyone else's or my own health. Especially now that there are already apparently antibody resistant strains circulating in parts of the world. We live in a society, we have such an excellent quality of life because of that society.

But we also have responsibilities to that society. If I can, through vaccination, use my health to protect others with absolutely no cost to me whatsoever then it's my responsibility to do so. If someone doesn't want to do the same, then fine, that's up to them. But if you want to fully participate in society then you fully participate in society. Rights and responsibilities.

@alittleprivacy we know more about the duration of immunity from natural infection than we do about the vaccine at the moment. Recent studies have shown natural immunity lasts 6-8+ months (max period of the study) and it is expected to be longer. So people who have immunity are not putting others at risk. It doesn’t matter if that immunity comes from natural infection (which many people have had or would be happy to take their very low risk of) or through vaccination. The vaccine does not guarantee immunity either.

You realise that flu puts people at risk every year too? We don’t demand that everyone be vaccinated against flu every year as a ‘responsibility to society’ so they can go to the shops.

@Malfoof

"That worked out so well for the Australian open tennis. Still had positive tests after they boarded the flights."

I think the point is that people who were slow or reluctant to get vaccinated will be encouraged to do so, for the good of all. We've seen a slow down in vaccination rates in the 18-30 pop, probably because they think it won't affect them if they get infected, so why bother with the vaccine? If you're a 20 something gym fanatic, or you love clubbing and concerts, it's going to be a bit of a pain to get tested every two days so you can get back to doing the things you love.

No, the suggestion in the post I was responding to was children and teenagers, who currently cannot be vaccinated should have a negative test 48 hours before going to the gym, cinema etc. It didn't work in Australia for the tennis, people on the flights, who had a negative test before boarding, still went on to test positive. All it does is breed a false sense of security

@bumbleymummy, did you read about this at all? Immunity naturally also means you get a pass in Israel. Which is what’s being discussed here. Any sort of immunity counts, as long as you have antibodies. Does that win you over, or has that actually got nothing to do with your actual argument which is solely based on ‘but I don’t want to’.
Again, no one is taking away your freedom of choice here. You don’t have to have the vaccine. But choices have consequences, and sometimes they are hard.

The simple fact is that people's right to not get a vaccine does not outweigh my right to not be around them and the danger they pose
So with this reasoning, why is the flu vaccine not forced, or come with the freedom restrictions that everyone on mnet seemingly wants?

That is a virus, which is also deadly to a small amount of the population, as c19 is.

TB also isn't a forced vaccination in 2019, that still killed over a million people.

How about STIs? Any male or female suffering with syphilis should never be able to sex again, think how many people are put at risk. That still causes over 500,000 stillbirths a year. All those innocent babies.

Fuck it. If we're talking about endangering people, let's ban cars. All those drug and drunk drivers, all those lives put at risk everytime they get behind the wheel. Smoking, yes, let's ban that too. My niece has cancer, is at 70% chance of also developing lung cancer if exposed to smoke, so for her safety, I want it banned everywhere. She's only 6 years old. Those daring to smoke are putting so many people at risk with their selfish ways.

In life there are risks. C19, is not a risk to a huge amount of the population. If you have a vaccine, then what are you worrying about. You are protected and won't be killing any grannies.

I cant help feeling this is a bit devisive. I dont disagree with it once everyone has been offered a vaccine but I think of be pretty pissed off if the UK rolled this out soon and the vaccinated could do all those things we all desperately want to, like see friends and exercise and have a bit of a life and there was a whole sub-class of basically the younger members of society (say the under 50s) who were barred from doing so for months...

@TransplantedScouser

Look. If this is the only option to allow mass gatherings, spontenaity and being able To live then bring it on.

I’d be sorry for those who can’t but that’s not my problem especially if it’s by choice and I would expect those with genuine medical exemptions to be given the badge or what ever.

It’s almost as bad as a school local to me which removed all school trips and holidays on the basis that some couldn’t afford it therefore no one should be going on them

It’s inconveniencing the masses for the minority and that’s not the way to go

OT but I completely agree that schools should not arrange school trips that pupils can't afford. Education should be free. Schools organising holidays is a bit strange.

@bumbleymummy, I guess the crux of my point is, should my friend have the choice to go to the theatre again and have some ability to risk access that based on the policy of the venue, like she risk accesses her whole life, and know she won’t be sitting next to someone with a much higher possibility of giving her a potentially fatal disease, or should you get to go to the theatre if you’ve refused a vaccine based on personal choices you have made.

I’m sorry this feels like an argument now, I want you to know I’m not having a pop, I just genuinely disagree with your logic. It’s your right to feel how you want about this, I’m just interested in debating the ethical points at play.

" cant help feeling this is a bit devisive. I dont disagree with it once everyone has been offered a vaccine but I think of be pretty pissed off if the UK rolled this out soon and the vaccinated could do all those things we all desperately want to, like see friends and exercise and have a bit of a life and there was a whole sub-class of basically the younger members of society (say the under 50s) who were barred from doing so for months..."

Everyone over 16 in Israel has access to the vaccine.

[quote Sevensilverrings]@bumbleymummy, did you read about this at all? Immunity naturally also means you get a pass in Israel. Which is what’s being discussed here. Any sort of immunity counts, as long as you have antibodies. Does that win you over, or has that actually got nothing to do with your actual argument which is solely based on ‘but I don’t want to’.
Again, no one is taking away your freedom of choice here. You don’t have to have the vaccine. But choices have consequences, and sometimes they are hard.[/quote]
I’m responding to people here who seem to think that anyone who isn’t vaccinated is selfish and is putting other people at risk and that simply isn’t the case. If someone chooses not to have the vaccine and is already immunity then that choice doesn’t have any consequences.

That person she’s sitting next to at the theatre could have any number of other diseases that could also make her ill if she’s immunocompromised.

@bumbleymummy, yes, but there’s also lots of diseases she doesn’t worry about because....vaccine in population having lowered the risk of many many big diseases for all of us. Aren’t we lucky? So many societies must be agog at the privilege of us being able to argue this point, rather than acknowledging the amazing opportunities we will have becuase of this vaccine.
And it’s not about me, I will have the vaccine because I feel I should, and because we mitigate risk sensibly up to a point where we can. Ie seatbelts, pollution monitoring, bouncy surface in playgrounds etc.
I do of course agree it’s a murky area when it comes to making a vaccine mandatory, and I think we should find other wants to encourage the reluctant (for whatever reason) to the safety and science of it, and the benefit of it. That’s how my friend will get back to the theatre.
This is a new situation for the world, and it’s interesting watching how different society models respond.

It’s not really important if the person sitting beside you has been vaccinated against measles if they have asymptomatic flu (as up to 70% of cases are annually) that they pass on to you and it makes you very ill/kills you.

It’s up to your friend if she wants to go back out to theatres and take the risk of getting sick from anything while she’s there. Covid isn’t the only thing out there and someone being vaccinated doesn’t guarantee immunity so if anything, thinking that everyone around you has been vaccinated could be providing a false sense of security. I’m not being insensitive here, we have had several immunocompromised people in our family but they made their own decisions about risks they were willing to take and would never have dreamed of forcing others to do something to protect them - particularly when that protection couldn’t be guaranteed.

@Susie477

Well done Israel.🇮🇱 👏👏👏

They are leading the world out of the pandemic, and we should be learning from them, not making politically motivated criticisms of them.

Not well done at all, given children can't be vaccinated. I know vaccine passports are going to happen but I think they are a dreadful idea. And how long are we going to have to queue up outside every shop and venue for while someone has the thankless task of checking we've been vaccinated.

I will be doing all my shopping online and getting takeaway as I refuse to queue up everywhere to be checked. It's completely ridiculous.

So adults get to do what they want but children have to submit to constant testing 2 days prior to doing anything? They can't do anything on a whim?

And those who are exempt from having the vaccine for very valid reasons can't do anything?

“So adults get to do what they want but children have to submit to constant testing 2 days prior to doing anything? They can't do anything on a whim?

And those who are exempt from having the vaccine for very valid reasons can't do anything?”

Didn’t you read anything that was written here? Things in Israel that require a green passport OR proof of recovery from Covid19 OR a negative test result in the past 48 hrs are: entering a gym, a pool, a concert, or a hotel. Everything else works in the same way it has until now. We wear masks, we keep 2 metres apart, we submit health declarations or have our temperature checked when entering certain places (malls, supermarkets etc).

I will be doing all my shopping online and getting takeaway as I refuse to queue up everywhere to be checked. It's completely ridiculous.

It is completely your free choice to do this.

Most of us would very happily be checked in order to get out of staying at home and getting takeaways. That is our choice.

@Neron

The simple fact is that people's right to not get a vaccine does not outweigh my right to not be around them and the danger they pose So with this reasoning, why is the flu vaccine not forced, or come with the freedom restrictions that everyone on mnet seemingly wants?

That is a virus, which is also deadly to a small amount of the population, as c19 is.

TB also isn't a forced vaccination in 2019, that still killed over a million people.

How about STIs? Any male or female suffering with syphilis should never be able to sex again, think how many people are put at risk. That still causes over 500,000 stillbirths a year. All those innocent babies.

Fuck it. If we're talking about endangering people, let's ban cars. All those drug and drunk drivers, all those lives put at risk everytime they get behind the wheel. Smoking, yes, let's ban that too. My niece has cancer, is at 70% chance of also developing lung cancer if exposed to smoke, so for her safety, I want it banned everywhere. She's only 6 years old. Those daring to smoke are putting so many people at risk with their selfish ways.

In life there are risks. C19, is not a risk to a huge amount of the population. If you have a vaccine, then what are you worrying about. You are protected and won't be killing any grannies.

Drunk drivers are already banned 😂😂

And the rest of your post 😂🤭 jaysus.

So, as the UK is generally so anti-ID, this will not happen here. It has to be tied to ID and as unfakeable as possible for it to mean anything. I have never understood why anyone would object to carrying ID - it is perfectly normal in other countries, and has only benefits as far as I can see.

It was tongue in cheek/sarcastic @Fembot123

@ginghamstarfish

So, as the UK is generally so anti-ID, this will not happen here. It has to be tied to ID and as unfakeable as possible for it to mean anything. I have never understood why anyone would object to carrying ID - it is perfectly normal in other countries, and has only benefits as far as I can see.

I don't understand it either. As I posted earlier, people will happily carry a passport, driving licence, travel card, bus pass, gym membership or a library card but suggest an ID card and they start frothing at the mouth!

Fuck that. Freedom fucking badge. Please.

@Malfoof

" cant help feeling this is a bit devisive. I dont disagree with it once everyone has been offered a vaccine but I think of be pretty pissed off if the UK rolled this out soon and the vaccinated could do all those things we all desperately want to, like see friends and exercise and have a bit of a life and there was a whole sub-class of basically the younger members of society (say the under 50s) who were barred from doing so for months..."

Everyone over 16 in Israel has access to the vaccine.

But that’s not the case here. So it would feel unfair.

apple.news/AvFzcEeFGSI2ZK0t7Uq5d5A

Somebody far more qualified than me (although I had a German Jewish relative) said this about false equivalencies of vaccine with Holocaust. Worth a read for the antivaxers here going down the same path. Please stop it.