Coronavirus and "human rights"

[lightand]

I was thinking to start a thread about this, this morning, but couldnt think of quite the right words.
Now I have been on a thread, and with the permission of another poster, I am reposting her words here.

"A year ago if you'd told me what the rules would be I wouldn't have believed you. I would have thought it a human rights abuse. I feel scared, unsafe. I'm living in a world where the government can put law abiding citizens into solitary confinement. That's fucking terrifying. I couldn't escape it. I couldn't escape what they did. Nothing feels safe, knowing they can take everything. Take away your loved ones."
[She wrote it in the context of living alone and being separated from loved ones].

I think this will be one of the many enduring memories when people look back on what has happened in the last year. That what we think of as human rights, were, and still are, being easily taken away from us.

@Rocaille

Are you going to have a tantrum and stamp your foot as well?

I find this mockery and taunting of people who have legitimate concerns really upsetting. It's characteristic of the shrill, nasty tone that a vociferous minority has adopted.

Let us go back to the tantrum post in question. It was:

Thinking about this too much makes me not want to get my vaccine.

Is that the post of someone who has a legitimate concern?

@dividedwefall humour me. Explain why you think our current government, and most/all European governments, want to cause massive economic hardship to gain control of us and permanently remove a lot of our rights.

Assume I’m stupid, keep it simple

I don't know - I think I have a lot of rights really. Try being in South Korea with far fewer covid deaths and cases. If you test positive they take your phone, extract all your location data and publicise it then take you away to a hotel until you test negative.

In this country I can just turn track and trace off on my phone. Really I can do what I want. In theory it's against the law but my neighbour has parties, mother in law round all the time, goes out with all the kids and friends in tow, has other friends and relatives round. Nothing happens.

The only thing that astonishes me is how quickly we removed education from the kids but yet pretending that a few worksheets uploaded each week is an education. That and as someone else posted that your access to education is based on your parents employment and/or the whim of a headteacher.

It's just a movie clip and not to do with Covid but an interesting link to the thought that human rights (for want of a better expression) can ebb way without notice and the 'inmates can become the guards':

@dividedwefall

I am so glad to see this thread. I feel like I am living in a parallel universe at the minute and still can't come to terms with how the government just cancelled our lives, our relationships, our businesses and our kid's education with no consultation, scrutiny or consent. I never thought this would be possible in the UK.

Our powerlessness, and the powerlessness or perhaps complicity of the courts, has scared me far more than Covid ever has. I sympathise with every word of the OP and feel it too. I am so happy to see so many feel the same way too. I think we were silenced and gradually, people are speaking out.

I am someone who has studied in-depth Stalin and the Soviet Union from a 'how could millions of people ever let that happen to them?' perspective. This is how it starts. The 'emergency' changes, but the programme is the same. Who would have thought you could compare Boris Johnson with Stalin a year ago??

I am most dismayed by the people around me though. The people have allowed themselves to be terrified into a stupor by experts in propaganda. Sorry, I mean behavioural psychology and communications. It is astonishing and terrifying. And I am not exaggerating. We are taking part in a huge psychology experiment and I am afraid the results of that experiment do not bode well for our future.

Sorry to burst your parallel universe, but in my country, where we have had some more draconian measures, we are more or less back to normal. Almost all restrictions have been lifted. They are occasionally re-imposed, but that's okay - it's a pandemic, and we know they'll be lifted again once the outbreak that caused them is controlled.

That is how adults deal with with these things. Not everything is '1984 or Stalinist Russia or Totalitarianism or Fascists or ...stuff! It isn't even propaganda. I'd think carefully before using that term in this context.

@dividedwefall

I am so glad to see this thread. I feel like I am living in a parallel universe at the minute and still can't come to terms with how the government just cancelled our lives, our relationships, our businesses and our kid's education with no consultation, scrutiny or consent. I never thought this would be possible in the UK.

Our powerlessness, and the powerlessness or perhaps complicity of the courts, has scared me far more than Covid ever has. I sympathise with every word of the OP and feel it too. I am so happy to see so many feel the same way too. I think we were silenced and gradually, people are speaking out.

I am someone who has studied in-depth Stalin and the Soviet Union from a 'how could millions of people ever let that happen to them?' perspective. This is how it starts. The 'emergency' changes, but the programme is the same. Who would have thought you could compare Boris Johnson with Stalin a year ago??

I am most dismayed by the people around me though. The people have allowed themselves to be terrified into a stupor by experts in propaganda. Sorry, I mean behavioural psychology and communications. It is astonishing and terrifying. And I am not exaggerating. We are taking part in a huge psychology experiment and I am afraid the results of that experiment do not bode well for our future.

Back in my real world, my local NHS trust ICU is still at maximum capacity. This is after being expanded threefold. Dedicated staff are working continuously and waiting for their second vaccines. Just feel this needs to be said as reading some posts on here people are forgetting the purpose of these restrictions. Infection rates have thankfully declined and the vaccine affects are starting to show but we are far from being back to normal. Oh yes and also having to put plans in place for a third surge.

Some posters are confusing the need to put in place public health measures to control a virus with taking sweeping emergency powers that remove almost all rights and freedoms, and the ability as adults to exercise personal responsibility.

A bad respiratory virus is terrible, and ICU is obviously overwhelmed as it often is in winter. Bu that doesn't mean the government should have the right to fine free people walking on the beach or even for leaving their own homes. We had a rule you couldn't meet family in a garden for god's sake. Is that a proportional, rational or even effective way of controlling a virus? No, of course it isn't.

So sob stories about full ICU and hospitals while of course are sad, only serve to push the narrative further that it is totally normal for the government to do what they have done.

And what is worse, the UK still has one of the worst death rates in the world despite all the 'sacrifice'. Maybe because the government thought it appropriate to close schools but not airports?

I've read some arrant nonsense on this thread but Johnson = Stalin just about tops it.

@Wildswim

Yes. It's frightening how swiftly our civil rights and liberties were removed, with practically no debate or scrutiny ever since.

What has frightened me too is how the media has not questioned it, indeed, it has acted as a propaganda outlet to pump the message out and keep us all controlled by fear. Dissenting voices have been quashed - those who question being called Covididiots, etc.

What is also frightening is how people have conformed so readily, and some have been quick to spy on and report on others. The characteristics of a police state. On that note, some of the police have been heavy-handed and relishing the new powers which gives them easy targets (unlike real criminals).

It's all been very worrying. As Steve Baker writes in the Telegraph today, the Coronvirus Acts needs to be repealed and replaced by a Public Health act which will be subject to regular scrutiny by parliament.

Yes, absolutely 👍

So sob stories about full ICU and hospitals while of course are sad, only serve to push the narrative further that it is totally normal for the government to do what they have done.

No-one thinks any of this is totally normal, where are you getting that from? Also, "sob stories about full ICU" is very offensive.

There is a real problem with threads such as this one. I agree there is a legitimate concern to be had about any legal freedoms being removed under emergency measures in a democracy, and absolutely that this needs to be watched very carefully. Government are accountable to the people, not the other way around.

However, threads such as this one are invariably filled with people who have a very different agenda. People who deny that there is any emergency at all and believe that it is all a Huge Conspiracy and all the rest of the dreary, insane CT shit.

What I do not see is those posters who are genuinely concerned about human rights doing anything to clean up that shit out of their threads.

Why is that?

I agree @Haffiana. There are people on here posting with an agenda and attempting to stir the people's genuine concerns. None of us like these restrictions but to try and say we are living under a Stalinist regime is ridiculous. I'm not a fan of this government and am aware of the many mistakes that have been made but they have been far from the most draconian. Wasn't it in Spain during the first wave that children were forbidden from going outside in public? Also in some countries you couldn't leave home without a written slip of some sort detailing the purpose of your trip. Was this in France or Italy? I agree with the point of reviewing the different measures to see which ones were effective and which ones made no difference.

@mrshoho

I agree *@Haffiana*. There are people on here posting with an agenda and attempting to stir the people's genuine concerns. None of us like these restrictions but to try and say we are living under a Stalinist regime is ridiculous. I'm not a fan of this government and am aware of the many mistakes that have been made but they have been far from the most draconian. Wasn't it in Spain during the first wave that children were forbidden from going outside in public? Also in some countries you couldn't leave home without a written slip of some sort detailing the purpose of your trip. Was this in France or Italy? I agree with the point of reviewing the different measures to see which ones were effective and which ones made no difference.

I think now they know how easily they can put us under house arrest more to follow

I think now they know how easily they can put us under house arrest more to follow

It’s hardly ‘easy’ is it? It’s involved shutting down large parts of profitable society and becoming a pariah internationally due to infection rates.

Unless you think they want us all to start building pyramids or toiling in fields or even, maybe they’re going to start door to door organ harvesting (though for whom is another question).

For all this talk of control I’m yet to understand for what exact purpose. Assuming we’re still talking about humans in charge (and we haven’t descended into talk about a lizard NWO) what exactly are they gaining?

Pre-2020 we were already a nicely fat, docile population happy to play the game that profited the 1% nicely despite only getting crumbs from the table and abusing third world nations to provide us with trinkets. Why would any power grab involve scaring and pissing off their population. Scared and angry people aren’t renowned for their cooperation or productiveness.

If I was going to believe any corruption theory it would be that there is no vaccine and we’re being injected with saline to coax us back out and get the money train rolling again. I think the more likely scenario is poor old Boxer from Animal Farm than 1984 if you want to take your lead from Orwellian fiction. Disclaimer - I do not believe this

For me, it comes back to lack of personal responsibility. I’m a pretty intelligent person (got the papers to prove it!), however it does appear that my right to think for myself has been removed by a government that assumes I’m thick as mince and can’t ‘keep myself safe.’

(I won’t go into the concept of ‘safe.’ Most people are safe from a virus that doesn’t kill them).

The problem is, a lot of people are thick as mince, or belligerent, or both.

The other problem is that those people aren’t good at following the rules designed to ‘keep them safe.’ So the government has to impose hugely draconian, often nonsensical rules that trample our human rights. And still we have a death toll approaching 120,000.

And yes, it could have been worse. I work in the NHS and so does DH (ITU), just before anyone accuses me of not caring or understanding the machinations of the health service.

Love Animal Farm - just finished rereading it recently - highly recommend it. Poor Boxer.

One of the classic lines cold apply to thought/information police on social media sometimes I think 'All Animals Are Equal ... But Some Are More Equal Than Others'.

If you get a copy and old copy the preface is fascinating - Orwell was scathing about the BBC and the intellegistia even in the 1940s.

Animal Farm is a fable about the Russian Revolution but illustrates how the sheep and the regime are unaware (along with poor Boxer who works himself to death) that they leave one regime (willingly) and end up in another, similarly unfair regime while still brainwashed that they are 'free'.

I'm sure the thought police will tell me that I've read and understood it all wrong though lol. But it's a cracking story and well written. And in its day, Orwell found it hard to find a publisher - interestingly he writes the British could be seen to criticise Churchill but not the Soviet system.

Ah but @CountessFrog because you work for the NHS you don’t understand the economic impact apparently because you’ve got a nice ‘safe’ job.

Not my view, but then I also apparently don’t have a clue 🤷‍♀️

Looks like your fears weren’t realised @TravellingTilbury and this thread’s still here...

The other problem is that those people aren’t good at following the rules designed to ‘keep them safe

People who are in the NHS are so pissed off with Boris blaming the general public. Most people are following the rules. It’s things like not financial support for isolating or the failure of Test track and trace.

Look at current air travel. Scotland has forced all air passengers to quarantine. Britain, just those from the Red list. But all arrivals are herded together through passport control! And some then drive to Scotland.

And l don’t buy into civil liberties at all. It’s an emergency situation. I’d forgo some of my data protection to let us track cases like S .Korea any day.

I think now they know how easily they can put us under house arrest more to follow

@Beaniecats I hope you have someone to talk to in real life about your fears.

I love TravellingTilbury's lecture on Animal Farm, as if they are the only person on the thread to have read and understood it.

@Katie517

Completely terrifying and must never be allowed to happen again. I really don’t understand how they have been able to make it illegal for us to see family and friends in our own homes. No other countries have been able to do this, in France it’s advised against but not actually illegal.

We have some of the most draconian restrictions in the world yet people blindly comply without question. I think the government have even admitted they were surprised at how easy it was to get us to comply but then I guess running a one dimensional terror campaign for a year would scare most people into complying. But don’t worry from March they will allow us to sit on a park bench with one other person.....

We do t have some of the .is 'draconian restrictions in the world's Other countries have had armed guards and strict curfews. and those are some of the milder ones.

We DONT

@ChocOrange1
am particularly concerned about the fact that people are not allowed to protest or March at the moment
There are thousands of people dying, families are delegated, people have lost their jobs and this is your priority????

Separated not delegated