Coronavirus and "human rights"

[lightand]

I was thinking to start a thread about this, this morning, but couldnt think of quite the right words.
Now I have been on a thread, and with the permission of another poster, I am reposting her words here.

"A year ago if you'd told me what the rules would be I wouldn't have believed you. I would have thought it a human rights abuse. I feel scared, unsafe. I'm living in a world where the government can put law abiding citizens into solitary confinement. That's fucking terrifying. I couldn't escape it. I couldn't escape what they did. Nothing feels safe, knowing they can take everything. Take away your loved ones."
[She wrote it in the context of living alone and being separated from loved ones].

I think this will be one of the many enduring memories when people look back on what has happened in the last year. That what we think of as human rights, were, and still are, being easily taken away from us.

Has Bill Gates been mentioned yet?

[quote LadyPenelope68]@ChocOrange1
am particularly concerned about the fact that people are not allowed to protest or March at the moment
There are thousands of people dying, families are delegated, people have lost their jobs and this is your priority???? [/quote]
And in reality there have been marches and protests. Yes the police have stepped in but if you hold your belief strongly enough that shouldn’t stop you. Look at the Hong Kong protestors, they’re facing much harsher sanctions for protesting their cause but it doesn’t stop them because they have an inherent belief that their voices need to be heard.

It leads me to believe that a lot of online bluster Is exactly that with no conviction or real belief in what they’re saying.

@LadyPenelope68
One can be concerned about more than one thing at once.

This thread is about rights which have been removed, one of which is the right to protest, a fundamental part of a democratic society. It's the first step to a government which is never questioned or disagreed with.

Not sure how you make the leap from "I am concerned that it is illegal to protest" to "I dont care if people have died and lost their jobs"

@ChocOrange1 but that’s my point, if you’re really concerned it doesn’t make a difference whether protesting is legal or not.

I don’t subscribe to your view but I can’t imagine feeling that and doing nothing. What are you going to say to the next generation? ‘Oh I saw all these human rights being eroded - I did my part to protect and was concerned on the internet’.

@mrshoho

I agree *@Haffiana*. There are people on here posting with an agenda and attempting to stir the people's genuine concerns. None of us like these restrictions but to try and say we are living under a Stalinist regime is ridiculous. I'm not a fan of this government and am aware of the many mistakes that have been made but they have been far from the most draconian. Wasn't it in Spain during the first wave that children were forbidden from going outside in public? Also in some countries you couldn't leave home without a written slip of some sort detailing the purpose of your trip. Was this in France or Italy? I agree with the point of reviewing the different measures to see which ones were effective and which ones made no difference.

I don't have an 'agenda'. Just because you don't like what I am saying, or don't want to hear it because it is uncomfortable, doesn't mean I am wrong or writing with some underlying motive. I am expressing my opinion based on what I am experiencing and what I know of history. I didn't ever say we were living under a Stalinist regime, for god's sake. I explained that I see very strong parallels in the tools used and that makes me very worried.

We had strong protections in this country and it has been a shock to see how easily they were removed and how we literally couldn't do anything about it. How is this about conspiracy theories? Why throw that emotive term into the pit to undermine the very real issue of government emergency powers and proportionality?

It may be that we get back to the old normal and all of this can be remembered as an aberration, albeit with moves to ensure no government of the UK can ever rule by diktat again, even in an 'emergency'. But what also may be the case is that we have ongoing restrictions or things like vaccine passports. Both the government and their advisors have hinted as much.

“We had strong protections in this country and it has been a shock to see how easily they were removed and how we literally couldn't do anything about it. How is this about conspiracy theories? Why throw that emotive term into the pit to undermine the very real issue of government emergency powers and proportionality”

Because emergency powers are just that and the term itself exists because there are scenarios where they are necessary and freedoms need to be temporarily controlled and restricted. This has been recognised for a long time, way before it was needed.

The conspiracy comes in because to deny that the use of emergency powers during this pandemic is necessary is to deny that covid and its consequences aren’t real, or at least the generally accepted evidence isn’t real.

It may emerge later on that there could have been different and better ways to deal with this pandemic but these will only be recognised with hindsight, everything else is supposition and theory which isn’t good enough to gamble on. Emergency powers right now are based on the most basic of infection control principles - keep the infected and vectors apart. What other choice was there?

I’m not even talking particularly about deaths, covid (long covid) has affected many previously economically active people to the point they are either now inactive or will be for a long time. The way our populations age structure works means this has the potential to be devastating economically past the life span of the pandemic.

This thread is really funny.

We’re in a pandemic. Most countries are operating the same as us. It’s nothing to do with civil liberties or rights. It’s to do with an emergency situation. Yet people going on and on about libertarian right wing economy led Boris destroying our rights.

Like l said, I’d happily forgo a few rights in this situation for a functioning economy like S. Korea who track all cases.

@Cornettoninja

“We had strong protections in this country and it has been a shock to see how easily they were removed and how we literally couldn't do anything about it. How is this about conspiracy theories? Why throw that emotive term into the pit to undermine the very real issue of government emergency powers and proportionality”

Because emergency powers are just that and the term itself exists because there are scenarios where they are necessary and freedoms need to be temporarily controlled and restricted. This has been recognised for a long time, way before it was needed.

The conspiracy comes in because to deny that the use of emergency powers during this pandemic is necessary is to deny that covid and its consequences aren’t real, or at least the generally accepted evidence isn’t real.

It may emerge later on that there could have been different and better ways to deal with this pandemic but these will only be recognised with hindsight, everything else is supposition and theory which isn’t good enough to gamble on. Emergency powers right now are based on the most basic of infection control principles - keep the infected and vectors apart. What other choice was there?

I’m not even talking particularly about deaths, covid (long covid) has affected many previously economically active people to the point they are either now inactive or will be for a long time. The way our populations age structure works means this has the potential to be devastating economically past the life span of the pandemic.

Excellent post.

Orwell was scathing about the BBC and the intellegistia even in the 1940s.

I love Orwell. He was a true independent thinker and very far-sighted.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

This thread is really funny.

We’re in a pandemic. Most countries are operating the same as us. It’s nothing to do with civil liberties or rights. It’s to do with an emergency situation. Yet people going on and on about libertarian right wing economy led Boris destroying our rights.

Like l said, I’d happily forgo a few rights in this situation for a functioning economy like S. Korea who track all cases.

No it’s not that. Of course we’re in a pandemic and we have to take measures - the public health crisis justifies the denial of basic rights.

The point, for me at least, is that simply saying we’re in a pandemic so whatever the government does is fine because the ends justify the means is dangerous. Rights still matter and the government should be scrutinised properly in terms of whether the interference is appropriate or proportionate at any given stage.

@Fridget so do you think they are proportionate. I broadly do and believe rights will be swiftly reinstated.

I still haven’t seen a reasonable response as to why people think our rights are being permanently removed

The point, for me at least, is that simply saying we’re in a pandemic so whatever the government does is fine because the ends justify the means is dangerous. Rights still matter and the government should be scrutinised properly in terms of whether the interference is appropriate or proportionate at any given stage

I don’t disagree but I’m interested at what level of disaster you would personally think the current measures would be justified? Pure fantasy - doesn’t have to have any basis in the reality of this particular disaster.

My view is that it’s better to be proactive rather than reactive and I think the current measures are justified but then I don’t think as a country we have been particularly proactive throughout this pandemic and have been forced into action on more than one occasion. I’m as interested as anybody to see officially what is said on the 22nd about the path out of lockdown and I wouldn’t rule out my own criticism further down the line depending on what transpires but I’m also aware of the balance that needs to be struck for a stable recovery (which I firmly believe is what we need even if it takes a long time in small steps, reimplementing if needed)

@Cornettoninja

“We had strong protections in this country and it has been a shock to see how easily they were removed and how we literally couldn't do anything about it. How is this about conspiracy theories? Why throw that emotive term into the pit to undermine the very real issue of government emergency powers and proportionality”

Because emergency powers are just that and the term itself exists because there are scenarios where they are necessary and freedoms need to be temporarily controlled and restricted. This has been recognised for a long time, way before it was needed.

The conspiracy comes in because to deny that the use of emergency powers during this pandemic is necessary is to deny that covid and its consequences aren’t real, or at least the generally accepted evidence isn’t real.

It may emerge later on that there could have been different and better ways to deal with this pandemic but these will only be recognised with hindsight, everything else is supposition and theory which isn’t good enough to gamble on. Emergency powers right now are based on the most basic of infection control principles - keep the infected and vectors apart. What other choice was there?

I’m not even talking particularly about deaths, covid (long covid) has affected many previously economically active people to the point they are either now inactive or will be for a long time. The way our populations age structure works means this has the potential to be devastating economically past the life span of the pandemic.

This is spot on

I don’t think our rights are being permanently removed. I do worry that the govt bypassing parliamentary process to pass these measures using emergency powers is a dangerous precedent, and I do hear some people speak about longer term social distancing but I assume these are speaking as individuals not as govt policy. I’ve never said I think we will be on lockdown forever. I don’t.

I tend to think the measures are proportionate, but having heard little from the government about the negative impact of restrictions on long term public health, poverty, mental health, economy etc it’s hard to say for sure. With that caveat, given that the death toll is so horrific with restrictions, my view would be they are proportionate because I dread to think what it would be without.

It’s more about ensuring our rights are part of the discussion for me, than about me saying the removal of our rights isn’t justified if that makes sense.

@Fridget it does and I pretty much agree. Rights are vital, temporary removal should be just that, even when it’s right and proportionate.

Some seem to believe we’re on a slippery slope to bring North Korea, and “they” just want to control us. That’s the views I’m in disagreement with.

“That’s the views”. Urgh sorry
“Those are the views”

I tend to think the measures are proportionate, but having heard little from the government about the negative impact of restrictions on long term public health, poverty, mental health, economy etc it’s hard to say for sure

It’s certainly been acknowledged and discussed but in reality what can they actually say right now? Dealing with the consequences of the pandemic can’t really start until it’s no longer an immediate threat and we can assess resources and need.

I’m certainly not defending this cabinet (I fundamentally disagree with their core beliefs) and I think there will be massive inequalities in how issues are supported post-covid, but those are yet to emerge and it’s just speculation right now.

@dividedwefall do you agree that the pandemic is real and serious? Do you think the government measures have been proportionate? If not, why have they been too much? What does the government gain from that?

And do you believe a government should have the power to quickly enact emergency measures at all?

And sorry to bombard you with questions. I realise that came across as rude

@Cornettoninja

I tend to think the measures are proportionate, but having heard little from the government about the negative impact of restrictions on long term public health, poverty, mental health, economy etc it’s hard to say for sure

It’s certainly been acknowledged and discussed but in reality what can they actually say right now? Dealing with the consequences of the pandemic can’t really start until it’s no longer an immediate threat and we can assess resources and need.

I’m certainly not defending this cabinet (I fundamentally disagree with their core beliefs) and I think there will be massive inequalities in how issues are supported post-covid, but those are yet to emerge and it’s just speculation right now.

The outcomes of lockdown are entirely predictable - it's not like there's any great mystery that we're trying to uncover over time. If you prevent business from opening they collapse, if businesses collapse jobs are lost, if jobs are lost people get poorer, if people get poorer children suffer and the economy shrinks, leading to further knock-on economic effects.

Equally if you deny children education they fall behind and struggle to catch up. If you prevent children having contact with adults and children outside the home their mental health declines, abuse goes unnoticed and they become less well adjusted and healthy.

These are all known effects. These are all things people are choosing for themselves and their families on the basis that it's worth it. I don't believe for one second that it is worth it.

Arse in the coop window

(Best username ever)

How do you know what ‘people in the NHS’ think?

100% of adults i know who work in the NHS (and I know a lot of them, including myself and DH) don’t actually agree with you

But if you don’t have lockdowns then you get vast swathes of people ill, in hospital, and dead. That will mean businesses collapsing, jobs being lost, education being impacted and all the effects you talk about.

The decision being taken is which is the least worst, hence the lockdowns and the removals of freedoms that requires.

The government has chosen the measures. Some may disagree but they’ve tried to pick the least worst option. There’s nothing to suggest it’s because they want to restrict rights for nefarious reasons

[quote BillMasen]@dividedwefall do you agree that the pandemic is real and serious? Do you think the government measures have been proportionate? If not, why have they been too much? What does the government gain from that?

And do you believe a government should have the power to quickly enact emergency measures at all?[/quote]
Of course I believe it is real and serious, especially to octogenarians.. But I DO NOT think the government measures have been proportionate, I do not believe the communication of the measures has been proportionate and I think we will all look back with horror at what we allowed.

Why have they been too much? My personal belief is that, once the first lock down finished (which I agreed with under the circumstances) the emergency was over and the government should have been forced to revert to normal public health measures. There were months to prepare for the expected winter surge in cases, and billions to spend on those preparations. The billions have been wasted on testing which is a waste of time, inaccurate and appears to have had zero effect and propping up a crippled economy. Not to mention the sickening amount of money pumped into focus groups and 'research' including a study on how other countries perceive the UK's reaction to the crisis. Just take a look at the government's contract finder in weep at the gravy train.

Just as things appear better the goalposts are shifted. Three weeks to flatten the curve in March 2020 is 'we will have thousands of daily deaths in summer if we end lockdown now' in February 2021. Whether this is on purpose or sheer incompetence I do not know or care. I just know it is wrong and harmful.

Just today a new variant has been announced. We knew it would be - the news was getting just too damn hopeful that this might end soon. This happened at Christmas too. Just as we felt the leash loosening a new variant is discovered and then we are locked down and schools closed again. If you think this is all coincidental then I envy you.

As for what does the government gain form that? Well, it isn't for me to say. I have thoughts on the matter but nothing that is helpful to the conversation or that I have any proof for. Like you, I will only know anything about this when I look back on it.

What would you have done instead of lockdown, though? The consequences of not locking down would be what's happened in Brazil, or some US states. The alternative would basically have been Covid spreading like wildfire and much higher death totals and more unable to work due to long Covid.

Countries like South Korea and Singapore managed much better, with careful contact tracing but that wouldn't work here, as it involves allowing even more state control over our activities.

The irony is I bet Boris Johnson would have been writing the same as me back when he was a journalist. He loathed the idea of Blair's ID cards. What would he have made of immunity passports I wonder?