Coronavirus and "human rights"

[lightand]

I was thinking to start a thread about this, this morning, but couldnt think of quite the right words.
Now I have been on a thread, and with the permission of another poster, I am reposting her words here.

"A year ago if you'd told me what the rules would be I wouldn't have believed you. I would have thought it a human rights abuse. I feel scared, unsafe. I'm living in a world where the government can put law abiding citizens into solitary confinement. That's fucking terrifying. I couldn't escape it. I couldn't escape what they did. Nothing feels safe, knowing they can take everything. Take away your loved ones."
[She wrote it in the context of living alone and being separated from loved ones].

I think this will be one of the many enduring memories when people look back on what has happened in the last year. That what we think of as human rights, were, and still are, being easily taken away from us.

I am particularly concerned about the fact that people are not allowed to protest or March at the moment. While not a "human right" the right to protest is so important in a democracy and this has been removed.

I'm surprised to be the first to reply to this (bet I won't be by the time I actually hit post!), as there is a strong narrative on here that everything and anything is justifiable, because 'it's a global pandemic'/killer virus/unprecedented etc.

But I totally get your point. That all those things we are ordinarily entitled to enjoy under zero scrutiny, suddenly became criminal, with relatively little discussion or debate about what was reasonable or proportionate....that was truly terrifying. That it became illegal for my child to play with another ever, or for me to have a cup of tea with my Mum. That is considerably more terrifying for me than catching the virus. Now it's been done once, those that have ulterior motives will always be able to come up with some kind of reason why it is necessary again.

I trust and hope that there will be much legal debate in the coming years, to establish which of the measures imposed, were truly necessary and proportionate.

A separately terrifying element is the people prepared to report others for minor infractions, when they know nothing of the circumstances, but that's probably a tangent too your thread.

And I've kept to the rules for the most part, I'm not a denier or a 'this doesn't apply to me' kind of a person. But I'm incredibly uncomfortable with 'pandemic' being used to justify anything at all.

It’s terrifying. If you’re not scared, you’re not paying attention

Yes. It's frightening how swiftly our civil rights and liberties were removed, with practically no debate or scrutiny ever since.

What has frightened me too is how the media has not questioned it, indeed, it has acted as a propaganda outlet to pump the message out and keep us all controlled by fear. Dissenting voices have been quashed - those who question being called Covididiots, etc.

What is also frightening is how people have conformed so readily, and some have been quick to spy on and report on others. The characteristics of a police state. On that note, some of the police have been heavy-handed and relishing the new powers which gives them easy targets (unlike real criminals).

It's all been very worrying. As Steve Baker writes in the Telegraph today, the Coronvirus Acts needs to be repealed and replaced by a Public Health act which will be subject to regular scrutiny by parliament.

Completely terrifying and must never be allowed to happen again. I really don’t understand how they have been able to make it illegal for us to see family and friends in our own homes. No other countries have been able to do this, in France it’s advised against but not actually illegal.

We have some of the most draconian restrictions in the world yet people blindly comply without question. I think the government have even admitted they were surprised at how easy it was to get us to comply but then I guess running a one dimensional terror campaign for a year would scare most people into complying. But don’t worry from March they will allow us to sit on a park bench with one other person.....

I do worry about the reporting, but tbh we have always known any country could become fascist.

The government imposed rules/controls over the civilian population in ww2, why is this different?

Although I appreciate this has been very hard on us all, especially the CEV who live alone and those in care homes, I think "solitary confinement" and " Nothing feels safe, knowing they can take everything. Take away your loved ones." is generally little over dramatic.

One of the things I hope comes out of all this is that people will have more insight and care more about the everyday lives of people who live with these sort of restrictions all the time, due to disability/illness. I'm not holding my breath though.

The rest of us will get these freedoms back.

Agree. And the willingness, eagerness, almost, to report any perceived infraction is astonishing and shocking. I would add policing and monitoring the weekly clap - when it was on - into the basket of awful.

Every totalitarian state in history has used 'emergencies' to justify bringing in draconian rules and repeal civil rights such as freedom of speech or assembly.

I'm not saying we're a totalitarian state of course, but there IS a slippery slope argument. Civil rights, and democracy itself, is fragile.

Throughout history there are very few examples (if any?) where repealed civil rights and liberties have been quickly and willingly returned. We may find, for example, that surveillance on the general population is tightened from now on (e.g. CCTV being used to see if 'large crowds' are gathering, as is happening in Republic of Ireland); vaccine passports also being a worry as of course they can be used to control people's movements.

Once governments have control and power, they do not give it up easily.

We have some of the most draconian restrictions in the world yet people blindly comply without question

We have some of the most draconian restrictions in the world yet people blindly comply without question

This isn't true. SM is stuffed to the gills of discussions like this. This statement is veering into the "drones" and "sheeple" narrative, which is so inaccurate and divisive.

Throughout history there are very few examples (if any?) where repealed civil rights and liberties have been quickly and willingly returned
The last time civil liberties in the UK were curtailed was during WW2. Do we still have rationing and identity cards and conscription?

I suspect a lot of posters will be so disappointed in a few months time when they find we are not a totalitarian state after all and lots of the restrictions have eased.

It's terrifying! Far more terrifying than the virus.

But don’t worry from March they will allow us to sit on a park bench with one other person.....

I know - we're supposed to be grateful for this!? It's insulting. And terrifying too.

It really is staggering how much has been taken away from us, and it's noticeable how reluctantly and slowly it's being returned. Note how ultra-cautious the government is being about the process of lifting restrictions. Note how the goal-posts have repeatedly changed over the past year.

@Wildswim

Every totalitarian state in history has used 'emergencies' to justify bringing in draconian rules and repeal civil rights such as freedom of speech or assembly.

I'm not saying we're a totalitarian state of course, but there IS a slippery slope argument. Civil rights, and democracy itself, is fragile.

Throughout history there are very few examples (if any?) where repealed civil rights and liberties have been quickly and willingly returned. We may find, for example, that surveillance on the general population is tightened from now on (e.g. CCTV being used to see if 'large crowds' are gathering, as is happening in Republic of Ireland); vaccine passports also being a worry as of course they can be used to control people's movements.

Once governments have control and power, they do not give it up easily.

I disagree with this as we have far greater rights now than we had a hundred years ago. The direction has been fairly positive, with the exception of privacy.

We are at increased risk due to Brexit, as the government is keen to ditch our European rights, I feel. But I am not of the mind that the government won't repeal the covid rules when not needed.

So much of the current situation, if taken out of context, would seem unbelievable

• children's access to education decided by their parents employment
• illegal to visit your family in their homes

• your phone tracking where you go
• phone calls to interrogate you on your movements
• protests being illegal

Who would believe any of that?
Add the pandemic context, it makes sense.

Whilst it is shocking, we also have a right to life and most would also expect a right to medical care if they required it. The lockdowns have attempted to preserve those rights, whilst admittedly taking away other rights. It is an impossible balance, but one I hope we never have to face again. Let's hope the human race learn to respect the environment we are so fortunate to have, to avoid such a disaster again, but sadly I doubt it...

I do agree with PracticingPerson about the reporting thing, but I have only seen this on Mumsnet and the madder corners of Facebook. In real life I haven't known of anyone who has reported anyone else.

Do we still have rationing and identity cards and conscription?

There are threats that social distancing and mask-wearing will continue indefinitely. ID cards will undoubtedly become a thing now as part of vaccine passports - plus we have Big Tech tracking our every movement already.

Conscription is not necessary because there is no war (though some countries have continued with military service).

But more than any of that, the Second World War was an actual emergency with a real risk of invasion by a foreign power and a far bigger risk of death than Coronavirus.

It really is staggering how much has been taken away from us, and it's noticeable how reluctantly and slowly it's being returned

Could that be because last time, everything was opened up a little too quickly (especially in England) and we ended up in deep shit because of this? I would hope the return to normal will be gradual.

Why would any of the UK governments want to keep us locked down for no reason?

The other weekend we took a stroll along the seafront. There were lots of older couples enjoying a cup of tea whilst sitting on the benches. They were all sat separately, presumably in their bubbles or with their partner, no more than two people to a bench.

Every single one of them was a criminal under today’s legislation.

Thankfully there were no police around to drag these miscreants of to prison, so they could enjoy their drinks and the fresh air in peace.

Anyone who actually thinks people relaxing on a bench, enjoying fresh air and a drink, really are criminals needs their head checked.

I was thinking this the other day.

I plan to have a little tea party for my DS. Hes 3, an only child and missed out massively this past year. I plan to have my parents, partners parents and my 4 nephews. Non of us high risk, CEV or over 60.

The police could barge in my house and stop it. For having my family around my house. They're making law abiding citizens into criminals by having family over.
The personal responsibility is gone. The government have decided it's too dangerous for us on our behalf. It's a police state.

I would, and many others who I know, would happily sign a wager to NHS, "do not treat me in the event of Corona virus" if it was to allow us to live a normal life.

The world has gone mad.

That it became illegal for my child to play with another ever, or for me to have a cup of tea with my Mum. That is considerably more terrifying for me than catching the virus
I think you might change your mind if you caught Covid.

@Worldgonecrazy

The other weekend we took a stroll along the seafront. There were lots of older couples enjoying a cup of tea whilst sitting on the benches. They were all sat separately, presumably in their bubbles or with their partner, no more than two people to a bench.

Every single one of them was a criminal under today’s legislation.

Thankfully there were no police around to drag these miscreants of to prison, so they could enjoy their drinks and the fresh air in peace.

Anyone who actually thinks people relaxing on a bench, enjoying fresh air and a drink, really are criminals needs their head checked.

If they were in bubbles or household groups in England, what rule were they breaking?

There are threats that social distancing and mask-wearing will continue indefinitely

Do you have a reputable link on that @Wildswim? I understood that it may be that face masks may become the norm when people have colds etc, which would be no bad thing. But perhaps I misunderstood.

Why would any of the UK governments want to keep us locked down for no reason?

We'll not be locked down for ever, but the OP makes a good point that this has set a dangerous precedent, and it's very worrying how there has been so little dissent or questioning of how radically and swiftly our rights were removed. It could happen again, for a lesser reason.

There should have been a far greater discussion, all along, about the negative effects of lockdowns. Noone has been allowed to discuss these properly, and they haven't been duly considered. Instead the approach has been to allow scientists - narrowly focused on death-rates - to set the agenda. A wider perspective, and a sense of proportionality, has been missed.