Coronavirus and "human rights"

[lightand]

I was thinking to start a thread about this, this morning, but couldnt think of quite the right words.
Now I have been on a thread, and with the permission of another poster, I am reposting her words here.

"A year ago if you'd told me what the rules would be I wouldn't have believed you. I would have thought it a human rights abuse. I feel scared, unsafe. I'm living in a world where the government can put law abiding citizens into solitary confinement. That's fucking terrifying. I couldn't escape it. I couldn't escape what they did. Nothing feels safe, knowing they can take everything. Take away your loved ones."
[She wrote it in the context of living alone and being separated from loved ones].

I think this will be one of the many enduring memories when people look back on what has happened in the last year. That what we think of as human rights, were, and still are, being easily taken away from us.

@Shelovesamystery

It's terrifying! Far more terrifying than the virus.

If you end up on a ventilator do ask for a phone so you can post an update.

@LastTrainEast

Btw I'm looking for support to remove the laws regarding driving because freedom of movement is clearly a human right.

So if I wanna get pissed and drive on the pavement it be my 'uman right like innit!

What on earth are you talking about? Are you comparing the right to drive pissed on the pavement with the right to be able to leave your house for any reason you wish?

You clearly relish in the doom and gloom of all this.

These type of comments are predictable. Yes, I relish in it

You clearly relish in the doom and gloom of all this

This sentiment trotted out by posters who are generally themselves doom mongering over the economy, mental health or the loss of rights got boring a long time ago.

Especially when there’s clearly people salivating for the chance to go out and riot.

fortunately for most people the chances of catching it and developing severe illness is almost none! So that is not an argument at all
Er, the 117,000 UK deaths? Or were they just old or unlucky, so they don't really matter

Quite honestly if you were under the impression your life was your own before covid you haven’t been paying attention.

That's just a dystopian view.

In liberal parliamentary democracies, government is representative and it is by consent. Legislation is subject to debate and scrutiny. Or should be. That was the whole point of the OP - that the norms of democratic goverment have been abandoned. And anyone paying attention should be alarmed by that.

People always reference WW2 and say that the restrictions aren't in place now - but fail to mention the restrictions didn't end one the war ended. Rationing went on for years once the emergency was over.

There was a strict limit about how much of your own money you were allowed to take with you when you left the country. This carried on for decades after the war ended.

These restrictions were accepted to fight the war, but then afterwards, funnily enough the government liked having control (both Labour and Conservative governments kept them), to help with rebuilding the economy.

I worry how many rules will stay in to help us rebuild. Or New restrictions to avoid it happening again. (Rationing was stricter after the war.)

I'm glad at least the May local elections are going a head. That would have been quite an interesting development if not.

What on earth are you talking about? Are you comparing the right to drive pissed on the pavement with the right to be able to leave your house for any reason you wish

Yes, it’s a pandemic.

You could be carrying a virus with the potential to do as much harm to someone as a drink driver running into them. Until we’re in a situation we can be relatively confident you won’t you need to stay away from other people as much as possible.

But then you know that don’t you, you just don’t like it.

I think you might change your mind if you caught Covid

I caught covid, was unwell the week over xmas. By unwell I mean, had a wicked sore throat. I still wfh, and i slept more than normal.

Not being able to visit my mum is a million times worse than covid, and that will be the case for the vast majority of people who catch covid. For most it'll be a mild illness to a bad cold. For a select few it may be a bit worse, for a small minority it can be deadly.

Let's not put the dramatics on the wrong front. Covid is not a death sentence. It doesnt warrant panic from the vast majority of the young & healthy (and by young I mean those under 80)

Denying vulnerable members of society access to their family and support systems very well could be, and suicide rates are much higher in the "young & healthy". This is where we should be putting our dramatic concerns

I worry how many rules will stay in to help us rebuild

Which restrictions do you think would help us rebuild and why? As far as I can tell most of them are wrecking the economy?

@KarenMarlow3

fortunately for most people the chances of catching it and developing severe illness is almost none! So that is not an argument at all Er, the 117,000 UK deaths? Or were they just old or unlucky, so they don't really matter

And can you prove all these deaths died from Covid? That Covid actually contributed to their death? Not just because they tested positive for it?

@Cornettoninja

You clearly relish in the doom and gloom of all this

This sentiment trotted out by posters who are generally themselves doom mongering over the economy, mental health or the loss of rights got boring a long time ago.

Especially when there’s clearly people salivating for the chance to go out and riot.

Because the economy, mental health and loss of rights are affecting just about every one in the UK. These factors are affecting a wider range of people than Covid 19.

Rationing went on for years once the emergency was over. Because there wasn't reliable food supply to remove rationing, not for fun or control. The items rationed reduced over time.

@Wildswim yes I’m the one with the dystopian view 🤣

No, just a realistic view. I pay taxes and abide by the laws of the land. Within those laws I can exercise certain freedoms within sets of rules and I get the right to have a voice in choosing who will be tasked with deciding on those rules. If I don’t follow them I will face consequences. I’m free to voice my dissatisfaction and follow pre-decided channels to attempt to change rules I feel are unfair. I’m as free as I’m allowed to be within confines as a matter of state.

The truth is that how a successful society survives, and as it goes, for all its failings, I quite like the one I live in.

@Cornettoninja

What on earth are you talking about? Are you comparing the right to drive pissed on the pavement with the right to be able to leave your house for any reason you wish

Yes, it’s a pandemic.

You could be carrying a virus with the potential to do as much harm to someone as a drink driver running into them. Until we’re in a situation we can be relatively confident you won’t you need to stay away from other people as much as possible.

But then you know that don’t you, you just don’t like it.

I’ve said on this short thread I support these restrictions so I’m not sure the point of your rather childish final line.

But it’s still a stupid analogy. If you don’t know the difference between the basic liberty to leave the house and the “right” to drive pissed on the pavement which we have never had then this is clearly not an area you know much about. One is an enshrined human right - ECHR article 5 - one is a ridiculous suggestion which we have never been able to do and which no one actually wants to do.

So one requires rather more justification to remove than the other.

And can you prove all these deaths died from Covid? That Covid actually contributed to their death? Not just because they tested positive for it

Can you prove they didn’t? You’re the one refuting the accepted evidence the onus is on you to provide evidence.

Because the economy, mental health and loss of rights are affecting just about every one in the UK. These factors are affecting a wider range of people than Covid 19

Yes, disasters generally do have a ripple effect through society. The priority will change as the situation does and demands are met. Mental health, sadly, is going to take a back seat for quite a while. The next focus will be economic recovery.

Doom mongering is still doom mongering no matter which cause your bias leans in.

And can you prove all these deaths died from Covid? That Covid actually contributed to their death? Not just because they tested positive for it?
No, of course I can't personally vouch for every death being a direct result of Covid. The deaths were where Covid was mentioned on the death certificate. Are you saying that these people didn't die of Covid, and that we should ignore the figures?

@fridget oh no, you think I’m childish? That stings

So you where does ‘basic liberty’ come into protecting people from those who disregard the notion they could possibly be a threat to others because they could be unknowingly infected? Your freedom to leave the house directly contributes to the danger to others even if it doesn’t affect you personally.

And we’re back to whose rights trumps whose again.

@Cornettoninja

And can you prove all these deaths died from Covid? That Covid actually contributed to their death? Not just because they tested positive for it

Can you prove they didn’t? You’re the one refuting the accepted evidence the onus is on you to provide evidence.

Because the economy, mental health and loss of rights are affecting just about every one in the UK. These factors are affecting a wider range of people than Covid 19

Yes, disasters generally do have a ripple effect through society. The priority will change as the situation does and demands are met. Mental health, sadly, is going to take a back seat for quite a while. The next focus will be economic recovery.

Doom mongering is still doom mongering no matter which cause your bias leans in.

From Public Health England. Over a 5 month period, on average 30% of Covid deaths, Covid wasn't a cause. So imagine this on a wider scale?

Dying with 28 days of having Covid is a lot different dying because of Covid. Of course people have died due to Covid but you cant be certain with the way they are recording it.

Very blasè about 'disasters' ripping through society. I've never known one quite like this.

I know (colleague and their families included) 14 people who have Covid. 1 died, he was mid 70s. 1 hospitalised, late 50s with diabetes.
The other 12 including myself, had flu like symptoms. Laid up for a week or two then back to normal.
Where practically everyone who I know isbeffcted from lockdowns.
3 friends are now on antidepressants, 2 made redundant, hours cut, self employed, busineses gone, children's mental health affected, their education affected, peoples relationships, their own mental health.

I'm not saying Covid isn't serious but these continous lockdowns and high tiers are not in any way shape or form a proportionate nor a sustainable response to this virus.

[quote Cornettoninja]@fridget oh no, you think I’m childish? That stings

So you where does ‘basic liberty’ come into protecting people from those who disregard the notion they could possibly be a threat to others because they could be unknowingly infected? Your freedom to leave the house directly contributes to the danger to others even if it doesn’t affect you personally.

And we’re back to whose rights trumps whose again.[/quote]
Exactly - it’s a conflict of rights. Driving on the pavement is not a right so it was a really poor example.

I think that the public health emergency justifies the measures, but they do need to be justified and we should be scrutinising them government as to whether or not the infringements of our legally protected human rights (as opposed to drunk driving on pavement nonsense) is proportionate or not. It is important. Civil rights are important. And yet so many posters seem to think it’s ridiculous to bring them up “because there’s a global pandemic”. It’s concerning.

@KarenMarlow3

And can you prove all these deaths died from Covid? That Covid actually contributed to their death? Not just because they tested positive for it? No, of course I can't personally vouch for every death being a direct result of Covid. The deaths were where Covid was mentioned on the death certificate. Are you saying that these people didn't die of Covid, and that we should ignore the figures?

What I'm saying is people cant just fling 117,000 covid deaths around when there is no evidence to support this.

Because were not allowed to. If you discuss the massive negative impact lockdowns has had on pretty much every aspect of peoples lives, your a Covidiot/Denier/conspiracy theorist.

DuchessofHastings1 So true. Time will tell. Give it a few years and the covid zealots will soon realise how their futures and their children's futures have been fucked. The utter destruction the reaction to this has caused will far far outweigh the virus.

If coronavirus measures across many democratic countries are truly an unacceptable infringement of human rights, then why have the United Nations not done anything about it? Why don't you write to them about it?

It's been hard on all of us. Not just UK. The whole world has suffered restrictions. One of the worst years was 1709 - 1710. The Great Frost happened for months that year. At least 600,000 died. Animals froze solid in their outside pens. Poor people had no chance. No food or heating. It was a year of no harvest. Ground too frozen to grow anything. I know it's been an imposition but most of us have been indoors with food and heating. Not dying alone in a hospital bed. FGS get a grip

They haven’t taken away loved ones, singles can bubble and we have so much technology and means of keeping in touch.

What’s the alternative, we let it run thought society with no measure just so people can have family over? It’s saddening how many are still only thinking of themselves.

So many have lost their lives, many have long term effects or are awaiting delayed treatment as the nhs was overwhelmed or it’s wasn’t safe to do etc. Others risking their lives daily to do their jobs and seeing awful things whilst others moan they can’t do xm y or a for a while during a pandemic.