Coronavirus and "human rights"

[lightand]

I was thinking to start a thread about this, this morning, but couldnt think of quite the right words.
Now I have been on a thread, and with the permission of another poster, I am reposting her words here.

"A year ago if you'd told me what the rules would be I wouldn't have believed you. I would have thought it a human rights abuse. I feel scared, unsafe. I'm living in a world where the government can put law abiding citizens into solitary confinement. That's fucking terrifying. I couldn't escape it. I couldn't escape what they did. Nothing feels safe, knowing they can take everything. Take away your loved ones."
[She wrote it in the context of living alone and being separated from loved ones].

I think this will be one of the many enduring memories when people look back on what has happened in the last year. That what we think of as human rights, were, and still are, being easily taken away from us.

@afternooncuppa

Because were not allowed to. If you discuss the massive negative impact lockdowns has had on pretty much every aspect of peoples lives, your a Covidiot/Denier/conspiracy theorist.

DuchessofHastings1 So true. Time will tell. Give it a few years and the covid zealots will soon realise how their futures and their children's futures have been fucked. The utter destruction the reaction to this has caused will far far outweigh the virus.

Yup. A poster on another thread raised a good point. "We need a strong economy to pay for police, schools, NHS, elderly" ..when the majority of working age adults are having been made redundant, self employed lost work or furloughed, no jobs for upcoming college/uni leavers ...where is all the tax? More people on benefits not working, no tax. We will be paying for these lockdowns for decades where Corona will just be another winter flu. But people cant see past their fear.

I am not afraid one little bit! Not because I trust the Govt I most definitely do not but I trust the scientists! The people who have spent their whole careers studying epidemiology and healthcare.

I agree and have often thought this. What use are human rights if they are abandoned the minute there is an emergency. That is exactly when they are needed most.

I wonder if part of the reason this is not being challenged is that the restrictions apply to everyone and are not directly discriminatory. Often human rights cases involve an element of discrimination. If we had applied the sorts of restrictions in place only to homosexual men, for example, on the basis that this may reduce the spread of hiv this would be seen as a human rights atrocity (and rightly so). I don’t actually think it is any better to have measures which restrict human rights in this way applied to the whole population though.

I'm seeing a lot of hyperbole, including from the op.

There is zero evidence that the government are going to refuse to return our civil liberties. I'm completely confident that the laws will be repealed as the threat from the virus reduces. My evidence for this is:

• rules were massively relaxed over the summer in most parts of the uk
• many of our rules are much more relaxed that other counties
• the conservatives believe in small government, ie minimum interference in people's lives. They will want to return to that asap

-there is very clear, public health reasons for the current rules.

@DuchessofHastings1 but you’ve cherry picked five months where we had very low cases and corresponding low restrictions in many areas of the country. All you’ve done (to me) is prove that it’s perfectly possible to live alongside covid at manageable levels which had never been in dispute. What will the same parameters bring up including November/December/January? Or March/AprilMay 2020?

I’m going to have to disagree with your assessment of the 28 day reporting guideline. I don’t think this is one that we’ll ever reach an agreement on given our respective stances.

I debated giving personal anecdotes to back up my views but in all honesty they’re meaningless in this environment. I could say anything and you’d be right to argue and disbelieve them because this is the internet and who knows what’s truth and what isn’t.

I’m not being blasé about disasters, not in the slightest, but realistically there are always going to be consequences indirectly. From my perspective this is about priorities because recovery in most areas can’t happen with stability until the root cause of the disaster is shown to be under control, as in actually showing evidence of being under control.

@AntiHop

I'm seeing a lot of hyperbole, including from the op.

There is zero evidence that the government are going to refuse to return our civil liberties. I'm completely confident that the laws will be repealed as the threat from the virus reduces. My evidence for this is:

• rules were massively relaxed over the summer in most parts of the uk
• many of our rules are much more relaxed that other counties
• the conservatives believe in small government, ie minimum interference in people's lives. They will want to return to that asap

-there is very clear, public health reasons for the current rules.

With greatest respect need to wake up

I'm from Ireland but live in the UK and what I find interesting is how extremely law-abiding and compliant people in the UK have been in comparison to people I know in Ireland. The added curiosity is the belief among people in the UK that people here have not been compliant - a belief that isn't supported by any evidence whatsoever.

Among my family and friends in Ireland, which has very similar rules to the UK, the attitude is that the rules exist but of course you'll just break them if you want/need to. So for example there was never any consideration given to my mother and her (many) siblings not seeing my elderly gran, because she needs care and human interaction and so they have to provide it. The idea that they would stay away from an elderly person was not even entertained. They are careful, to as much as that's possible but they just accept that on balance there's no way to 100% prevent the risk so they just have to get on with it.

Another friend organised a meetup group for the children when the schools closed. Their attitude was the children needed interaction so they were going to provide it, no matter what the rules were. I know of a fair few other people who've done what they thought was necessary regardless of regulations. There's certainly no one I know who's asking 'can I see my sister?' they just do it if they want to or don't if they feel it's too risky. To be fair, at one point the gardai (Irish police) said they wouldn't police lockdown rules such as distancing and socialising in people's homes as they were too complicated - they would just 'support' people in doing the right thing (ie be a presence but not actually do much). When there were restrictions on travel my cousin was stopped by a garda on his way to see his daughter in another county and the garda said 'I'm not going to stop you but my colleagues might later on, so maybe you should go back, up to you.' That's not an entirely unusual scenario in Ireland!

In contrast I've found my UK friends to be compliant to an almost detrimental degree - they have struggled to exercise any sort of judgement about what's best for them and that's led to some really awful situations.

The part that bothers me the most is that anyone who wishes and tries to see family is classed as selfish and frowned upon.
I find that more scary than the rules that are dishes out. Just how easily people have accepted it and expected everyone to just be okay with it, no matter what.

I wrote to my tory MP to ask why the right to protest has been removed, unlike in any other democracy, and when it will be returned. He made absolutely no reference to that question. And replied as follows :
"would like to be clear that variations of COVID-19 are not an excuse to ‘justify a sustained power grab by the executive.’ The vaccine remains the route out of restrictive measures. However, to vaccinate an entire population, despite the speed in which it is currently being rolled out, takes time. The aim remains to vaccinate all over 50s by May and the Prime Minister is publishing the roadmap out of lockdown on the week of the 22nd February. This should give us a clearer picture of the steps ahead.

Again, I would like to stress that none of us want to be in lockdown and under restrictive measures – including the Prime Minister and government. This is not an excuse to grab power as you have put it, but to protect those who face the life-threatening consequences of COVID-19 and to ensure that our NHS can continue to function, provide treatments and save lives. "

I think they just copy and paste an answer depending on whether constituents like or dislike the restrictions.

@lydia2021

It's been hard on all of us. Not just UK. The whole world has suffered restrictions. One of the worst years was 1709 - 1710. The Great Frost happened for months that year. At least 600,000 died. Animals froze solid in their outside pens. Poor people had no chance. No food or heating. It was a year of no harvest. Ground too frozen to grow anything. I know it's been an imposition but most of us have been indoors with food and heating. Not dying alone in a hospital bed. FGS get a grip

Well that's a refreshing change from WW2

I'm not sure how that helps with the ongoing management and accountability of compromised rights in the 21st century though.

When I studied distopias in 6th form many years ago, 1984 was the most obviously concerning vision of society. But what really chilled me was the subtle removal of women's freedoms in The Handmaids Tale. Freezing bank accounts here. Sacking them there. Drip. Drip. And before you know where you are, there's no escape. Echoes of The Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution in Mao's China. Relying on people to inform on each other.

I don't think we have an agenda going that far, and can't see why we would go in that direction from where we were at the start of 2020. But it is wise to take note of what had happened, and how it unfolded because of the precedent itsets for captialist social democracies. Countries such as Iran have seen their freedoms revoked indefinitely in the past 40 or so years.

[quote Cornettoninja]@DuchessofHastings1 but you’ve cherry picked five months where we had very low cases and corresponding low restrictions in many areas of the country. All you’ve done (to me) is prove that it’s perfectly possible to live alongside covid at manageable levels which had never been in dispute. What will the same parameters bring up including November/December/January? Or March/AprilMay 2020?

I’m going to have to disagree with your assessment of the 28 day reporting guideline. I don’t think this is one that we’ll ever reach an agreement on given our respective stances.

I debated giving personal anecdotes to back up my views but in all honesty they’re meaningless in this environment. I could say anything and you’d be right to argue and disbelieve them because this is the internet and who knows what’s truth and what isn’t.

I’m not being blasé about disasters, not in the slightest, but realistically there are always going to be consequences indirectly. From my perspective this is about priorities because recovery in most areas can’t happen with stability until the root cause of the disaster is shown to be under control, as in actually showing evidence of being under control.[/quote]
I have 'cherry picked' nothing. This is an article from the public health England regarding deaths were Covid is present on the death, it's their report that they produced, not mine.
It amazing how when someone is presented facts that dont fit with their own opinion/narrative, they are completely dismissed.

'The root cause of distaste to be under control'. Covid is being vaccinated against and cases are already lowering. Theres even been reports Pzfier is not being adjusted against the south african variant as it presently has no effect on its efficiency.
The disaster is lockdowns. The devastating effects they have society on a wider scale than this virus has caused.

I've noticed these type of threads appear once infection rates, hospital admissions and deaths decline.

The restrictions we have had are far less than some other countries. The enforcement much less.

Where I do agree with the sentiment of the OP is over scrutiny (avoiding and dodging it is a trait of Boris Johnson which is common to everything he has done including his private life), and that because of the inaction of Mr Johnson in March and September last year especially, restrictions have been longer than should have been needed.

I also think that just imposing fines is not the answer, and that many of the worst instances should be or have been court cases where the justice of the opportunity to state your case is given.

I am actually pleased that we have a traditional Libertarian in charge with Boris. His indecision on all of this has been because it genuinely cuts him up to have to impose these restrictions and as soon as he possibly can he will give the freedoms back (probably waaaaay too early for the fear mongers liking)

I think the whole thing will become a lesson in the first incidence of global hysteria driven by our new technologies that we didn't really understand the power of, until now. Our future generations will learn about in modern history - fear and anxiety fueled by 24 x 7 mass media, echo chamber social networks, the 'religion' of science and the emergence of the global competition to be seen to be doing the 'best job'.

@PracticingPerson

These threads always go the same way. They are not about civil liberties, they are about not believing covid is a serious risk.

And eugenics. And fucking incessant.

I'm from Ireland but live in the UK and what I find interesting is how extremely law-abiding and compliant people in the UK have been in comparison to people I know in Ireland.

I've found the exact opposite. The restrictions in ROI have been much tougher than in the UK - to take one example, they've had a 5km radius travel ban for months now and it is rigorously enforce by garda. Yet compliance among people in ROI has been extremely high. There is next to no dissent and the media seems to operate as a State mouthpiece.

Our future generations will learn about in modern history - fear and anxiety fueled by 24 x 7 mass media, echo chamber social networks, the 'religion' of science and the emergence of the global competition to be seen to be doing the 'best job'.

Yes, interesting comment. Also perhaps the triumph of nationalism and the demise of the EU.

@StopGo

A year ago I simply wouldn't have believed that it was possible or legal to prevent me from being with my terminally ill husband when he was given his diagnosis, had appointments and was then admitted. I was given his diagnosis over the phone and not allowed to see him until he was hours from death.

My DM is now in hospital with no mental capacity and no one to advocate her. She is scared, lost and lonely but DSis and I aren't allowed to visit.

We are one family in thousands going through this. Who would ever have believed this time last year that people including children in residential care would be denied the support of their families. Scary times.

My mother essentially starved to death in hospital because she was suffering extreme confusion due to a UTI and we were barred from entering the ward due to Norovirus. This is not a unique situation, other than now it affects everyone rather than a small number of individuals.

@Wildswim

I'm from Ireland but live in the UK and what I find interesting is how extremely law-abiding and compliant people in the UK have been in comparison to people I know in Ireland.

I've found the exact opposite. The restrictions in ROI have been much tougher than in the UK - to take one example, they've had a 5km radius travel ban for months now and it is rigorously enforce by garda. Yet compliance among people in ROI has been extremely high. There is next to no dissent and the media seems to operate as a State mouthpiece.

My impression is that the dissent is happening privately, ie people are just not following the rules

@Shelovesamystery

It's terrifying! Far more terrifying than the virus.

Agreed

Not dying alone a hospital bed. FGS get a grip was that directed at me @lydia2021 ?

I have a firm grip and am in no way a Covid denier.

@BogRollBOGOF I said last year that all this had undertones of the handmaids tale. All the school closures etc are predominantly affecting women and the right to protest etc has been removed as well as it being made illegal to have people in your own private paid for home

Under his eye

I remember late last year, someone here seriously said that people should be financially incentivised to report their neighbours to the police if they had 'too many' guests over Christmas.

If someone had told me even a year ago that this sort of thinking would be considered acceptable, at least by some, I'd have laughed at you.

Now, I don't think there's any great 'reset' conspiracy afoot. The Tories, after all, have a definite liberterian streak. But the fact that we are supposed to be grateful that maybe if we 'behave', we might get to visit our families, allow our children to go to school or have a cup of coffee with a friend, is chilling. I can understand the need for such measures in an emergency situation, but as citizens we have a right to know when we can expect it to end.

Well i have discovered in the last few weeks that we dont have a right to electricity. So they can shove their fucking lockdowns right up their arse.

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/eon-customers-gas-electricity-data-b1791496.html

And speaking of chilling.

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/eon-heating-energy-bills-supplier-weather-b1801662.html?utm_content=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3AQnfpMgcIB1-1p1mzxd3HDf_CwMJ8fxrTNyYAR2XwbJBO0ezPI0ufk9s#Echobox=1613171603