We cannot cancel life, to preserve every life

[Slytherin]

I actually find myself agreeing with a Tory for once...we’ve given up so much and the goalposts keep moving, yes it’s an unpredictable situation, but it’s also unsustainable long term. The idea that this summer will be possibly worse than last summer makes zero sense, when we have a vaccine roll out that far exceeds any other nation (except Israel) currently.
First it was let’s get the elderly and vulnerable vaccinated, then it was let’s get the over 50s vaccinated, now we’ve got members of SAGE suggesting restrictions have to continue until everyone, including children are vaccinated and beyond, because of the possibility of new variants. Professor John Edmunds said some would have to stay “forever” last night on Peston.

We must at some point live with an element of risk. I’m in no way suggesting we lift lockdown yet, but suggesting that things won’t have much improved by the summer, is, in my opinion encroaching into dangerous territory.

The government were over promising before, now they’re under promising. There’s got to be a middle ground, people’s mental health cannot sustain this level of pessimism and not having a single thing to look forward to. Everything gets dangled like a carrot, then taken away at the last minute. It’s beyond cruel.

Then it’s the mixed messages, Matt Hancock telling us he’s going on a summer holiday to Cornwall and he’s all booked up and Grant Shapps then telling nobody to even consider booking a holiday abroad or domestically this summer.

Yes, I support restrictions to save lives and support the NHS, but I don’t support the way the government are handling this once again. And I don’t support these restrictions indefinitely, especially when the majority of the at risk groups have been vaccinated.

www.channel4.com/news/we-cannot-cancel-life-to-preserve-every-life-tory-mp-sir-charles-walker-on-lockdown?fbclid=IwAR2RnQNKwJoQ4FSBxT9oTbwbFOCTWcIU9wD9WdYkTEA2sVlJ1posWZAfmsU

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'Live lessons are the same as being in school then are they? '

Well no, who said they were? However staying in bed certainly isn't the same as being in school and I know kids who do just that. Please don't bleat on about mental health problems, there will be a percentage who have genuine issues but the majority will be just like the parents, sick of it all and cba. Which is understandable but don't complain about the lack of education if your (not you specifically, generally) kids don't even get up.

'will gladly join in protesting peacefully against it.'

Can't wait to see the ragtag bunch of mumsnetters outside Westminster with 'down wiv the pandemic' on their placards.

Bleat on about mental health problems? Are you for real? And I didn't even mention it.... you're just ignoring my point about parents having to work then?

I see.

I have a child and lost my own job due to Covid. I adapted. I provided an example of a perfectly legitimate (temporary) solution to people losing their jobs; you just don’t like it

Go on then, please tell us how to live on jobseekers alone?

Can't wait to see the ragtag bunch of mumsnetters outside Westminster with 'down wiv the pandemic' on their placards

You do that a lot. You use words/language to try and imply that people who don't share your opinion are thick/uneducated/can't spell.

I've said it before but the fervent lockdown supporters, who are so keen to save the lives of strangers, aren't actually very nice to other people, unless those people agree with them. Weird.

There is no economic recovery without getting the virus under control. The two thinks go hand in hand - its not a choice between the two.

If you let this run rampant the NHS will be overwhelmed with the number of people with COVID. We are effectively paying for last year's summer holidays abroad now. Devi Sridhar's response here sums it up:
twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1359805370517118976

@suggestionsplease1

I think we generally have an unhealthy attitude to death.

Yes, every death is a tragedy, but it is also an inevitability, and none us are owed tomorrow.

The approach that we're taking just seems to have a completely unrealistic view of this. We should be more open about our own deaths, our own illnesses and how we can both live and die well.

We're fearful of death, quite understandably, but our fear of it is stopping us living while we have life; it is our jailer. And for how many more years to come?

I agree with this

And what comes off the back of this denial is something even more dangerous.

If you were a type 2 diabetic at the beginning of all of this and are STILL a type 2 diabetic, then you are still in a denial problem - you have not realised you have an illness that kills you. And that you can do something about it.

If you were obese at the beginning of this and are still obese, you need some help. You have not processed the fact that obesity kills more people than smoking and is number 2 for cancer.

Most of the people in ICU have these lifestyle illnesses, and I am getting pretty fed up of having to lose all my freedoms because we are still in this place.

I see Anthea Turner is being villified for a cartoon she has posted of an obese person eating a McDonalds berating someone for not wearing a mask because they should be "protecting my health".

I agree with the premise of that cartoon - why do I have to limit my entire life when someone else cannot take responsibility for their own health? We have had a YEAR!

People with lifestyle illness (which I believe take up ~50% of NHS resources even in normal times) have to understand the impact this is having on others.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

I have a child and lost my own job due to Covid. I adapted. I provided an example of a perfectly legitimate (temporary) solution to people losing their jobs; you just don’t like it

Go on then, please tell us how to live on jobseekers alone?

I never said live. Don’t take what I said out of context. It’s there to help pay the bills until you find another job. I don’t think anyone relies on JSA to live?

but I don’t think them losing their job, house or business trumps me (or anyone else) dying

It does to them. Surely that’s obvious.

I don’t think anyone, if they’re honest, is happy to make their family homeless in order to ‘save’ total strangers from dying. Before I hear screams of ‘selfish’, this is human nature, we look after our own.

[quote mamaatthegym]@Hammonds what would you rather people do?! Nothing?![/quote]
Crime? go into debt? bankruptcy? poor diet, don't pay bills.

I know people who also do the odd bit of work, not enough to stop claiming with all the hassle that is but they pay no tax etc.

Our JSA is 17% of avg income, in most EU countries its above 50% and in many, 60 to 70%.

Never seems to bother people in the UK how these countries manage, any talk of increases in public spending in the UK are met with derision.

Those who keep trotting out the
" there are risks everytime you leave your house, drive a car, walk down the stairs"

Yes I absolutely agree this is a well known fact. Everyone knows this.
I see these risks daily in A&E.

Thing is though. You cannot catch a car crash.
Really not sure why people use this as an actual comparison.

With covid running rampant. People should hope they don't have one of these other things.
Car crash, fall down whole flight of stairs because if you need ITU then there is a good chance you won't get it.
People suggesting we carry on as normal so we can have our elective ops back, screening at full levels etc. Do you think that would actually happen?
Even more would be cancelled.
I find it so frustrating that after a year people don't seem to grasp this concept.

Or is the solution
Open everything back up and turn everyone with covid away to die at home?

Is that the bracket for life now then?

No money, no jobs, kids suffering, mental health’s in the toilet but as long as you’re not dead it’s fine

[quote StarsAndsunbeams]@Snowdropsanddaffs Thank you for making me laugh out loud [/quote]
Me too, I needed that!

I never said live. Don’t take what I said out of context. It’s there to help pay the bills until you find another job. I don’t think anyone relies on JSA to live?

So you agree you can't live on it then?

So what are people supposed to do if there are no jobs?

Starve to death quietly?

You have all the answers don't you and yet you clearly know sweet fuck all.

@hughackmanswife You make v important points
That’s the beauty of Zero Covid strategy. As in Oz & NZ, by aggressively driving the virus out (they did it with even a vaccine), the Economy, Business, Schools & all Society thrives again.
Melbourne has found some cases today so it’s - BOOM- aggressive lockdown, test everyone, contain, drive it out, - Everything will Be open & going again in a month, plus Government support for Business & people during the Lockdown.
Lives v Econony never has to be a choice.
Fighting the mutual enemy COVID, with the people’s trust & buy-in & efficient Govt & support preserves both for the Country.
Same in NZ, SKorea, Canada, Singapore, many more. We could learn from their approach- I think Boris J already is tbh by his actions of late

Agree with you OP, and if the whole of the population had, from last spring, stuck to the rules re masks, distancing, no unnecessary trips except for absolute essentials, then we COULD have had things very different. But it's not possible here, as there is a certain percentage of the UK population not inclined to follow rules, or who think they know better or are special. Politicians (from all parties) are also not inclined to bring in tougher rules nor to have them enforced. So we are in the state we're in.

[quote mamaatthegym]@Hammonds what would you rather people do?! Nothing?![/quote]
I love the fact you think there is a bank of jobs waiting for people. You were lucky getting another job so swiftly most are not.

I posted a job advert on line for a part time receptionist and had nearly 400 applications. The vast majority were over qualified and had been out of work since last year. People are just applying for anything now because they are desperate - you must be hard if learning if you think it’s so easy to get a job or that JSA will cover bills. JSA monthly payment would just barely cover my council tax with a couple of quid to spare!

Well in my small town, the rolling rate has gone from 664 to not reported(less that 3).

I absolutely understand the wider issues of course. But it's a struggle to tell a 13 year old, having missed a term and a half of year 7 and half a term of year 8 That she should miss yet another half term off of school.

I find it so frustrating that after a year people don't seem to grasp this concept.

Of course people grasp this concept

But I am not being held to ransom by a health service that can only function if everyone has to lock themselves away and not see close family for months/years at a time, cripple the economy, decimate people’s mental health.

That’s not a trade off I will make. Let’s have a grown up conversation about our expectations from a health service, what it can/can’t do, how it’s funded, how we make difficult decisions.

We lock down to prevent meltdown of our health service and paralysis of our economy.

Our economy is paralysed despite (or because of) lockdowns. Biggest downturn since 1709?

The death toll would have been far higher had we allowed this virus to run rampant throughout the country

Our death toll is one of the highest, far higher than other countries whose lockdowns have been much less severe.

@ginghamstarfish

Agree with you OP, and if the whole of the population had, from last spring, stuck to the rules re masks, distancing, no unnecessary trips except for absolute essentials, then we COULD have had things very different. But it's not possible here, as there is a certain percentage of the UK population not inclined to follow rules, or who think they know better or are special. Politicians (from all parties) are also not inclined to bring in tougher rules nor to have them enforced. So we are in the state we're in.

We have some of the toughest restrictions in the world right now, and we have always had very high levels of public compliance with restrictions.

The idea that the virus would go away and leave us alone if only we we’re all very, very good is not realistic. It’s basically the modern version of “God has sent the plague to punish us for our sinfulness! Repent and we’ll be saved!”

murbblurb you have power, water, sewerage, internet, police, fire service, rubbish collection, food in supermarkets and NHS to some degree
if too many get ill, even temporarily, then all those things fall apart.

LucilleTheVanpireBat People keep repeating this over and over on this thread as though it is some sort of clever 'gotcha'. In what country in the world has the above happened?

Lucille It hasn't happened because lockdowns prevented it happening.

What do you think would happen if we got rid of lockdowns tomorrow. Are you saying services would cope?

@TrustTheGeneGenie

I never said live. Don’t take what I said out of context. It’s there to help pay the bills until you find another job. I don’t think anyone relies on JSA to live?

So you agree you can't live on it then?

So what are people supposed to do if there are no jobs?

Starve to death quietly?

You have all the answers don't you and yet you clearly know sweet fuck all.

No you can’t live if JSA but it was never designed to be lived off? There aren’t no jobs. There are less jobs. Jesus I’m going round in circles here. If JSA can stop someone starving to death quietly then isn’t that worth it?!

Can’t believe I suggest JSA as a reply to someone who said but what if someone loses their job and can’t pay for electricity, water and food and I’m being treated like Satan and being sworn at 😂😂😂

Lucille It hasn't happened because lockdowns prevented it happening

Lucilles point is that it did happen in other countries that didn’t lockdown.

You cannot catch a car crash. Really not sure why people use this as an actual comparison.

Really @Carrotcakeforbreakfast ? Both are unpredictable, happen outside our control and are currently a risk of daily life. Both are preventable through draconian measures, but not if we want to enjoy some freedom. They seen quite comparable to me.

In fact the concept of 'catching' - inadvertently being exposed to and suffering the consequences of - seems to match the description of a car crash quite well.

Very true. This is an interesting article about how Covid may we’ll play out over coming years. I think personally people have lost sense of balance. I was very supportive of measures before vax (and still am whilst vax rolled out to 1-9) but we need to be aware and consider the harms attempting to achieve Zero Covid would cause. It’s unobtainable in the U.K. without causing more harm than it solves. Eventually people will realise SARS Cov 2 will become endemic.

science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6530/741

Both are unpredictable, happen outside our control and are currently a risk of daily life. Both are preventable through draconian measures, but not if we want to enjoy some freedom. They seen quite comparable to me.

Exactly. Yet it’s never even crossed peoples minds to ban cars to save these lives.