We cannot cancel life, to preserve every life

[Slytherin]

I actually find myself agreeing with a Tory for once...we’ve given up so much and the goalposts keep moving, yes it’s an unpredictable situation, but it’s also unsustainable long term. The idea that this summer will be possibly worse than last summer makes zero sense, when we have a vaccine roll out that far exceeds any other nation (except Israel) currently.
First it was let’s get the elderly and vulnerable vaccinated, then it was let’s get the over 50s vaccinated, now we’ve got members of SAGE suggesting restrictions have to continue until everyone, including children are vaccinated and beyond, because of the possibility of new variants. Professor John Edmunds said some would have to stay “forever” last night on Peston.

We must at some point live with an element of risk. I’m in no way suggesting we lift lockdown yet, but suggesting that things won’t have much improved by the summer, is, in my opinion encroaching into dangerous territory.

The government were over promising before, now they’re under promising. There’s got to be a middle ground, people’s mental health cannot sustain this level of pessimism and not having a single thing to look forward to. Everything gets dangled like a carrot, then taken away at the last minute. It’s beyond cruel.

Then it’s the mixed messages, Matt Hancock telling us he’s going on a summer holiday to Cornwall and he’s all booked up and Grant Shapps then telling nobody to even consider booking a holiday abroad or domestically this summer.

Yes, I support restrictions to save lives and support the NHS, but I don’t support the way the government are handling this once again. And I don’t support these restrictions indefinitely, especially when the majority of the at risk groups have been vaccinated.

www.channel4.com/news/we-cannot-cancel-life-to-preserve-every-life-tory-mp-sir-charles-walker-on-lockdown?fbclid=IwAR2RnQNKwJoQ4FSBxT9oTbwbFOCTWcIU9wD9WdYkTEA2sVlJ1posWZAfmsU

I don't know how many times this needs saying and no one listening. It's not about deaths, it's about overwhelming the health system, which has a massive knock on affect on other health issues. Cancer treatments, emergency care, routine operations, manager ongoing health conditions.

@GoLightlyontheEarth. I would be really interested to know how many people on this forum know people who have had Covid or have heard anecdotally about people who had had it. . Of those people, how many have died? I have heard of a lot of people anecdotally who have had it. I also know a few personally. Only one person have I heard of dying. The father of a friend of a relative. Yet we have the news shrieking at us all day long, scaring us out of our wits and locking us away in fear that WE WILL ALL DIE. This is not to say that the NHS is not struggling, of course it is, and people are dying. But the fact is, most people will survive. There is a balance to be struck between this constant hysteria and life having to go on as normally as possible

Surely the whole point of Lockdown is to achieve this? We currently have 4 million confirmed cases and 120,000 dead. The entire UK population is nearly 68 million. How many more would be dead if the entire country caught it? Where would the NHS be? Where would the schools be? What state would the infrastructure of this country be in?

This is a bloody right wing Tory government doing this. What they have done is the complete antithesis of what they stand for. Why do you think they have done it? I’d bet my bottom dollar it’s not to save Granny or a BAME bus driver, it’s so that the country can continue to function in some way.

So it's better to end your life prematurely than live at the most 18 months/two years with restrictions

Nobody is guaranteed 18 months/two years. We aren't even guaranteed tomorrow. This isn't a pause, we can't get this time back. It's gone, wasted. You want people to agree to lose another 18 months of their lives? No.

I agree. The average age of death with Covid is older than the average life expectancy; only 5000 under 60s (including those with serious health conditions) have died with Covid (not necessarily of Covid) in the last year; a huge proportion of those dying have dementia/alzheimers/serious lung disease etc; age-adjusted deaths are only as high as they were in 2008, not 1888 for goodness sakes.

I understand the 'NHS is overwhelmed' rhetoric but why in the last year have we not managed to increase bed capacity and train thousands of auxiliary medical staff? That would have at least helped. To be honest I also would have been supportive of some stricter criteria on people actually being admitted to hospital if it meant that restrictions could be reduced - if they have a life-limiting condition such as the above already maybe they could have been supported to die comfortably at home rather than admitted to hospitals with Covid. Maybe we could have had much stricter restrictions for elderly and vulnerable people including carers and medical staff, so at least the rest of us could have had more normality. I'm not saying any of these three ideas (increasing bed capacity and staff; hospital admission restrictions; stricter restrictions on vulnerable groups and carers) would have worked but I'm frustrated we didn't even do any trials. It's not very scientific, we've just decided locking down the whole population is the only way.

'it just doesn’t sit right with me that the government have allowed everyone else to suffer, to save the lives of the elderly - especially when the elderly are the ones who were saying they’re not listening to the rules etc because they’re not spending their last days inside.'

Not about saving the lives of the elderly 🙄. Do try watching the news. It is about not having all the nhs capabilities taken up with treating those with covid. Same all over Europe.

I'm sure their parents will wang on about their poor bubz education

Your attitude is vile. Presumably you haven't tried to work full time and home school? They're not getting a comparable education to the one they were getting before. Belittling that is disgusting.

Again, it isn't easy but it's necessary. I do wonder if the dc who are coping have parents that are coping and can understand why we need restrictions until the data shows we don't

I'd fucking love to be coping but I can tell you my coping or lack thereof is not self inflicted and neither is most people's.

I know. Let's vaccinate the vulnerable then let everyone else get it?

The virus will invariably mutate and maybe become more deadly in the younger age group and for young children. Do you want to risk that? This virus has been underestimated throughout most of the western world. Isn't it about time we took it seriously?

Viruses mutate. Let's just encourage that and make the vaccination program worthless for everyone?

I agree, OP, and DH and I are old with underlying health problems — not enough to be vaccinated yet, though.

No one deserves the government we’ve got. I weep not only for the 100,000 dead and their families, but also for the small businesses bankrupted, the jobs lost, the lives ruined. The mental-health crisis alone will outweigh any good these late and shambolic lockdowns have achieved.

@NorbertMeubles

It's the mixed government messages that are grinding me down. It's as if the info as to when we will open up again is like some shiny bright present to us all from them and they're still finding the wrapping paper, sellotape etc. before they can do a big tik tok style unboxing social media TV announcement to tell us. Meanwhile others in the government who know about this super duper present to us are giving us hints as to what it could be whilst others have their hands firmly over their mouths and are just excited about seeing our little happy faces when we unwrap.

At this point I'd prefer a kitten a and a bottle of perfume as at least I know what I'm getting.

It does increasingly feel like that!

I am gobsmacked by the level of selfishness here!

Not all medical staff have yet been vaccinated. Most of those have only had the first jab. Having worked flat out for a year, they deserve not to be overwhelmed because some people want to go to the pub.

'Mental Health' problems affect ALL of us. Including those of us who've shielded for nearly a year.

Just because you are retired, doesn't mean your life is now worthless. Don't we deserve some life now after a lifetime of work?

Children in former years didn't have all the excess today's kids do. And we worked out ok.

The problem lies in the underfunding of the health service, and the fact that it has been shackled with mad politically-motivated outsourcing and tendering directives.

If the NHS has been properly supported over the last few years the problems of capacity would not be as bad as they are, and we would not be fearing a collapse of the service.

@carlywurly

We really seem to have hit a tipping point. From complying for a year, virtually everyone I know is utterly sick to death of living this half life now.

I walked into the supermarket today and was greeted by such a cheerful man it actually made me well up. It took me by surprise but I think brought home how much basic human interaction has been missing in the last year.

Please send an email to the supermarket if you get chance and mention him, and how he made you feel. I’ve been doing that for years when I come across lovely people who brighten my day and having had it done to me too I know what a difference it makes.

[quote wallyrag]@ktp100 I am so glad I saw your post!! Was scrolling through the self absorbed crap and wondering how could so many be so heartless and then, thankfully there was your post.
I'd never put a price on a human life, but many here seem to think it's easily traded for more of a social life.
I'm one of the tedious covid long haulers. I'm also a person who thinks that the suffering of anyone is something best avoided. Yes I miss going out. But I'd never think that the heartbreak of others is something that should happen so I can go out.
I have colleagues in the NHS who are so worn down, and traumatised. But there's a few of you on here who miss shops and the pub, how dreadful!! You've suffered so much!
Just because it's not you, your family and friends, it doesn't make life any less. [/quote]
I'm sorry you have been experiencing long covid and I hope it improves soon. The difficulty I have with that argument is the reason now that a lot of NHS frontline staff are struggling and feeling so traumatised is due to the ongoing restrictions. I could cope more with the demands of the job if I was able to see a friend (low risk) outside of work. I haven't hugged my mum since last February and as sad as it is in the NHS at the moment, that's the thing that's making my mental health plummet. Stressful jobs need people to have adequate coping strategies and this year has made that extremely difficult.

'They're not getting a comparable education to the one they were getting before. Belittling that is disgusting.'

Well if they don't get up and join live lessons they won't get any education will they?! but of course that will be everyone else's fault not the parents.

Insult me all you like, I have many daily challenges thanks.

I am gobsmacked by the level of selfishness here!

I know, right? Imagine wanting millions and millions of people to sacrifice even more of their lives so that a vocal minority can pretend they are safe, and claim it's for the greater good. Just so selfish.

And we’re not in this state to save the elderly. The government refused to close our borders, early on when that would have worked, because big business objected.

@LucilleTheVampireBat

I am gobsmacked by the level of selfishness here!

I know, right? Imagine wanting millions and millions of people to sacrifice even more of their lives so that a vocal minority can pretend they are safe, and claim it's for the greater good. Just so selfish.

People's right to go on holiday versus the vulnerable in intensive care or dying.

Yup. Despite your sarcasm, very selfish.

Agree 100% OP. I've said this from the outset.

Those saying the entire economy will collapse (supply chains, factories, infrastructure) if we open up - on what basis? Look at countries like Sweden, or the Southern US states which don't have masks, don't have lockdown and yet haven't collapsed.

Given Covid adversely affects the more elderly and vulnerable - in general - and a third of cases are asymptomatic, why would we be at risk of supply chains and infrastructure collapsing now, when that risk has been lessened by the fact that more people will have a level of immunity now than last spring?

The NHS has been fucked, mismanaged and in dire need of radical reform for decades. That is not my responsibility nor will I sacrifice fundamental liberties for its sake.

it's not about preserving every life, it's about maintaining a functioning NHS that doesn't have to choose who gets a ventilator or not

Just because you are retired, doesn't mean your life is now worthless. Don't we deserve some life now after a lifetime of work?

What about those who can't work because their jobs have been lost or their businesses collapsed, people who might lose their homes, people who can't feed their families? And yet you all others selfish.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

And we’re not in this state to save the elderly. The government refused to close our borders, early on when that would have worked, because big business objected.

Exactly! If this South African variant was highlighted to them as being so dangerous they would have closed the borders but no, they didn't. So we are supposed to stay in to protect everyone else and the NHS, apart from going on our fun packed weekly supermarket trip and people are swanning in on plane loads. I call bull shit to that. The government are playing is all now.

@gottakeeponmovin

Totally agree. If you feel you are vulnerable then you if you want to you can continue to isolate. The rest of us are happy to take our chances. You have more chance of being in a car accident than getting ping covid yet we all drive.

Yes this Let the people who won't survive it shield. Let the rest of us get on with it now or there will be nothing left. There won't be an nhs if none of us have jobs anyway so what's the point. Enough now

PracticingPerson
Oh please not this again.

We will be locked down until the indicators are better. We will lift the restrictions slowly, more slowly than last year because we fucked it up last year. Probably still not as slowly as we should. If things go our way the unlocking will be smooth. If things don't go our way we will have to lock down again.

What more do people really think can be said? It isn't a conspiracy, a plot, a story, a plan, a hoax. It is just shit and we (humans as a whole) are not in control of when this ends. We may be able to gain control at some point, but right now, we are not in control.
^
I agree.

People's right to go on holiday versus the vulnerable in intensive care or dying

That is bollocks, that's not what people are saying at all

Yes, yes, we know. The lives of the elderly, vulnerable and disabled just aren't worth it.