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Covid

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WHO report: covid likely not from Wuhan

450 replies

PicsInRed · 09/02/2021 16:40

Covid not from Wuhan, not there before December 2019 and may even have been imported into Wuhan/China in frozen food.

Definitely, 100% not from a lab but may have mutated bit by bit and crossed different animals and borders whilst doing so in order to reach the current covid we know and love.

So there ya go. Hmm

www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55996728

OP posts:
mumwon · 09/02/2021 18:04

raised eyes to heaven emo!
Our scientist/virologists are NOT stupid if they thought it was man made they would have known BUT they are able to id artificial modification.
What probably happened is this - (& I have said it before) the farming methods in some areas of China are small scale & old fashioned (primitive) animals living close to humans in old building which may have birds & bats living in roof or roosting over food processing in similar - bats are not house trained (nor are most birds) one of the said animals contracts this virus it spreads to animals (pigs?) people care closely for mrs piggy she passes bug to them - people pass bug to another animal it or the food stuff get packed in meat plant (note here how frequently these plants are centre of outbreak - why should China be any different) & the circle goes on to mix in a market later & so it goes on - the virus becoming more virulent & than takes the leap to pass from human to human in Wuhan market where it mixes with some random exotic animal & bingo! Epidemic leading to pandemic
They made major mistakes in dealing with it - the bureaucracy/politicians denied it existed - or it was easy to deal with & not that serious - just like (shall we make a list of countries that made mistakes?) Australia dealing with cruise ship (read how that happened) UK - Boris's delay until March for shutdown & not checking on people coming in from suspect areas, USA - Trump enough said
China is bad on human rights (torture) & environmental checks etc - but I don't think this was planned or criminally instigated - virus mutation & pandemics were always a risk & in the West we find it difficult to get to grips with the fact that we can't control or cure everything - technological thinking its called

Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/02/2021 18:06

All we need is coincidence to have enough proof, right?

Some of us aren't saying there's any "proof" - which is probably just as well, since there's little we could do about it even if there was

All we're saying is that the chances of the WHO having full access are practically zero, meaning that any conclusions will be questionable at best

mumwon · 09/02/2021 18:06

@ancientgran from what I have read an outbreak occurred there so it was easy to blame them - after the outbreak in the wards at the front - weren't they neutral in WW1?

o8O8O8o · 09/02/2021 18:07

worth a read imo
jamiemetzl.com/origins-of-sars-cov-2/
let me just summarize what I believe to be the most likely scenario.

In 2012, six miners working in a bat-infested copper mine in southern China (Yunnan province) were infected with a bat coronavirus. All of them developed symptoms exactly like COVID-19 symptoms. Three of them died.
Viral samples taken from the Yunnan miner were taken to the Wuhan Institute of Virology, the only level 4 biosecurity lab in China that was also studying bat coronaviruses.
The WIV carried out gain of function research, almost certainly on these and a range of related and other samples (which is different than genetically engineering the viruses). Chimeric viruses were likely developed in this process. There has never been a full and public accounting for what viruses are in the WIV sample set and database, and key elements of the database have been taken off line or deleted.
Given the close relationship of the Chinese Peoples’ Liberation Army (PLA) in the development and constriction of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, it is fair to assume a connection between the PLA and the WIV.
In late 2019 the SARS-CoV-2 virus appeared in Wuhan. The closest known relative of this virus is the RaTG13 virus sampled from the Yunnan mine where the miners had been infected.
The difference between the RaTG13 virus and SARS-CoV-2 could potentially be explained by the gain of function research pushing the development of chimeric viruses.
It is also plausible that SARS-CoV-2 could have been among the viruses held in or derived from a different virus in the WIV repository.
In the earliest known stage of the outbreak, the virus was already very well-adapted to human cells.
In the critical first weeks after the outbreak, Wuhan authorities worked aggressively to silence the whistleblowers and destroy evidence that could prove incriminating.
When Beijing authorities got involved a bit later, they likely faced a choice of implicating the Wuhan authorities, and, in effect, taking blame for what was quickly emerging as a major global problem, or turning into the curve and going all in for the coverup. I believe they likely chose the second option.
The Chinese government then massively lobbied the WHO to prevent the WHO from declaring COVID-19 as an international emergency and prevented WHO investigators from entering China for nearly a month.
In late January 2020, PLA Major General Chen Wei was put in charge of containment efforts in Wuhan. This role included supervision of the WIV, which had previously been considered a civilian institution. General Chen is China’s top biological weapons expert. Allegations that the PLA was conducting covert dual civilian-military research research on bat coronaviruses at WIV have not been proven.
The Chinese authorities have gone to great lengths to destroy evidence and silence anyone in China who might be in a position to provide evidence on the origins of COVID-19.
Although nothing can be fully conclusive in light of Chinese obfuscation, the continued absence of any meaningful evidence of a zoonotic chain of transmission and mutation in the wild and the accretion of other evidence is pointing increasingly, in my view, toward an accidental lab leak as the most likely origin of COVID-19. Given the extent to which China would benefit from discovering evidence of a transmission in the wild, we can assume Chinese authorities are doing all they can to find this kind of evidence without success. This failure would explain why Chinese officials have recently begun, with little credible evidence, asserting that the outbreak started in India or Bangladesh.
In light of all of this, only a full and unrestricted international forensic investigation into the origins of the pandemic, with complete access to all samples, lab records, scientists, health officials, etc. will suffice.

stairway · 09/02/2021 18:09

There are only two working theories on the origin of this mysterious virus. The bat theory or the lab theory. It seems that the WHO have found no evidence for either. Not really a surprise.

BeautifulStar · 09/02/2021 18:09

I wonder how much the WHO were paid to come out with that pile of bs?

FatCatThinCat · 09/02/2021 18:10

I'm not surprised, there's been evidence from a few places that suggest it was circulating before the outbreak in Wuhan. I'm in Sweden and the authorities here have said that it's possible it was here back in November 2019. I believe Italian and French researchers have said similar in their countries.

Lweji · 09/02/2021 18:10

may even have been imported into Wuhan/China in frozen food.

It may even have been dropped here by aliens, who knows?

More seriously,
"Another line of investigation is whether the virus could have spread through imported frozen food."
That's basically just pandering to the Chinese authorities as they have allowed the team in.

Frozenintime · 09/02/2021 18:11

China has always been secretive. People go missing and things are covered up. Nothing new.

MarshaBradyo · 09/02/2021 18:12

@Lweji

may even have been imported into Wuhan/China in frozen food.

It may even have been dropped here by aliens, who knows?

More seriously,
"Another line of investigation is whether the virus could have spread through imported frozen food."
That's basically just pandering to the Chinese authorities as they have allowed the team in.

Agree this is lunacy
Bramshott · 09/02/2021 18:12

Read the BBC article that the OP links to - it doesn't say this at all!!

As far as I can see from that article, today's report says:

  • WHO thinks it's unlikely it was leaked from the lab in Wuhan
  • It's much more likely that it came via animals and mutated, but they don't know exactly how yet
  • It may have come from bats originally, but there's no evidence that this species crossover happened in the city of Wuhan itself
  • Someone from the China Health Commission who was at the joint press conference said that COVID could have been in other regions before it was detected in Wuhan
  • Investigations are ongoing
LindyLou2020 · 09/02/2021 18:12

@EvilPea

We are / were never going to get the truth on this one. China lied every step of the way. I do think it was animal Based. But I don’t think we will ever know the truth of it
I have gone from being certain at the beginning of all this that, because of the absolute sheer global devastation this virus has caused, that "the world" would join together in finding out its origin. Then, decide what should be done in terms of (maybe) seeking reparation, and future prevention. This "world" approach is now in the hands of the WHO. I DO believe it originated in Wuhan. I DO believe it was covered up. China is a "superpower" and the world is frightened of it. I was very naive, and have no faith in the neutrality of the WHO. So, EvilPea, I think, very sadly, that you are absolutely right.
Octane · 09/02/2021 18:14

@lljkk

One thing I only realised recently is how scientists hear things, and how Jo Public hears things. Comes down to how uncertainty is heard.

Scientist says: "We don't know if masks wear the wearer"
Scientists hear: "We don't have proof whether masks wear the wearer"
Jo Public hears: "Masks don't protect the wearer"

Scientist says: "We don't know if the vaccine stops transmission."
Scientists hear "We don't have proof that the vaccine stops transmission."
Jo Public hears "The vaccine doesn't stop transmission"

Scientist says: "We can't say that the virus didn't come from outside China"
Scientists hear "We don't have irrefutable proof that the virus came from inside China"
Jo Public hears (the Scientist lying to say) "The virus didn't come from China"

There are two facets to this:
  1. The public are scientifically very poorly educated and that needs to be changed

  2. The media likes to spread BS and stir the pot and has way too much power over public opinion/discourse and that needs to be changed

Lweji · 09/02/2021 18:14

In late 2019 the SARS-CoV-2 virus appeared in Wuhan. The closest known relative of this virus is the RaTG13 virus sampled from the Yunnan mine where the miners had been infected.
The difference between the RaTG13 virus and SARS-CoV-2 could potentially be explained by the gain of function research pushing the development of chimeric viruses.

Or it could be explained by sars-cov-2 having a different origin from a closely related virus, that recombined in the wild or in a farm, or in a market (not necessarily in Wuhan).

The closeness between the 2012 and the 2019 is not that great, and it just shows lack of sampling cover of bat viruses, and in other animals.

Derbee · 09/02/2021 18:15

And I’m a monkey’s uncle

Ihatefish · 09/02/2021 18:17

WHO have been spouting generic crap for years.

But posters are correct about the general public’s understanding of science. Average member of public seems to think a scientist mentioned it so it must be the absolute irrefutable truth. Then they get confused when scientific advice changes as they get more information.

jasjas1973 · 09/02/2021 18:17

Ask yourselves why China locked down almost immediately?

They don't care about human life & and can hide any issues with their health service, its almost as if they knew what would happen if they didn't.

Regulus · 09/02/2021 18:17

Also this virus is intelligent its behaving in a way to suggest some man made intervention or modification

Please tell me this is meant to be a joke?

CodMouth · 09/02/2021 18:18

China is just good at covering things up.

Octane · 09/02/2021 18:19

Also this virus is intelligent its behaving in a way to suggest some man made intervention or modification

Exactly. I read that Chinese scientists used the Walkers-Crisps9 gene-editing tool to insert human brains into the virus.

Regulus · 09/02/2021 18:20

@jasjas1973

Ask yourselves why China locked down almost immediately?

They don't care about human life & and can hide any issues with their health service, its almost as if they knew what would happen if they didn't.

Hmm so did many Eastern countries who, unlike the West weren't arrogant enough to think it wouldn't happen to them.
Lollyds · 09/02/2021 18:21

Some of you sound nuts.

A ‘man-made’ virus would have genetic material with very obvious synthetic hallmarks. If only science was advanced as some people seem to think.

ConeHat · 09/02/2021 18:22

I think I'd need a impartial micro biology team studying this for sometime before I placed my bet.

But, genuinely, do people not believe that their are reservoirs of viruses in other species that can jump species? AIDS after many years was suspected to have comr from butchery of Bush meat.

Why not covid? There are possibly millions of viruses right out there that could kill us all, just waiting for opportunity to jump species. That's how it has always been. It's not ominous or scary, it's just nature. It's not even that common and less common to be like HIV and covid. What about bird flu? Do people not believe that jumped species?

Not convinced yet covid is unique, more convinced that people are scared that we cant control nature

LangClegsInSpace · 09/02/2021 18:22

If WHO were in China's pockets, why did it take so long for them to be allowed in to investigate?

My money's on some sort of mustelid as an intermediate species, just based on how fast it ripped through the mink population.

Blondiney · 09/02/2021 18:22
Hmm
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