Forcing vaccination

[Peaceiseveryrhing]

Just read this on the Beeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55718553

Personally, I think it's outrageous that employees may insist on vaccination and airlines preventing travel.

A communistic approach!

Once society opens back up again business owners are going to want everybody back in spending much needed money.

It's interesting that the arguments against getting a vaccine don't turn it round the other way.

If you are letting people in and not checking they're vaccinated - then what about all the other customers (who i can well imagine in certain circumstances might be the majority) who say "I'm not coming in unless you're checking vaccination certificates".

We often have discussions here about babies/kids on planes and there are always at least one or two who say "jep, I'd definitely pay a premium, or use an airline, that guaranteed no kids on a long haul flight". I can well imagine that in air travel there might be a lot of potential customers who would be equally keen to have vaccine checks to ensure all passengers/staff are vaccinated.

One thing that may come out of all of this is the expectation that sick and infectious workers schlepp themselves to their office on pain of being fired. Maybe, just maybe, this reckless-with-everyone-else's-health kind of attitude might bite the dust.

Driving is pretty much a fact and way of life these days. We attach so many caveats to this activity and yet nearly nobody has an issue with:
-having to be over 17
-not being under the influence of drugs
-not being under the influence of drink
-not pratting about on their mobile phone while driving
-taking a test and having a licence
-wearing glasses when needed
-wearing a seatbelt
-having a regular roadworthiness test
-having at least third party insurance

and so on and so on. And yet there will be someone somewhere who thinks they have a valid whereby they don't need to abide by some or all of those things. But if you don't do those things - you don't get to (legally) drive. Are you being deprived of your opportunity to do something that is pretty much what everyone else does? nope. You preclude yourself by not having, say, insurance. It's a choice you make.

There are a lot of arguments against compulsory vaccination but I'm not sure it's the right path to take.

Religious people claiming this is blackmail are making me laugh. They are the most 'blackmailed' of all society. Believe in this and do what I say or you'll go to hell. Literally living in fear of disappointing god. There's no proof in any of it, it's just a belief. Whilst people should be able to freely practise their religion without fear of persecution, their belief should not put people at risk of dying. Some religions don't believe in using contraception. Does that mean that people who have HIV/AIDS/other STIs have the right to unprotected sex, because of their religious beliefs? Even though it will harm and kill others? At what point do religious beliefs have to come second to people's health?

@SpamIAm

I'd be very disappointed in this. From a personal perspective, but also why covid? People have argued for years that other vaccinations should be compulsory to access school etc and those ideas are shot down.

I'm breastfeeding and so won't be having the vaccine until I've stopped - I'm not satisfied that "the vaccine can be given to breastfeeding mothers after consideration of their clinical need for the vaccine" is sufficient to protect my child. It would be extremely disappointing if I was banned from certain shops etc until I either was forced into taking a perceived risk that I'm not happy with or weaning before I'm ready.

Yes, but the reason why it's sensible for everyone who can have a vaccination, to have it, is to help protect those who for legitimate reasons can't. So, if the vaccine is not advisable for pregnant or BF women (and I'm not saying it is or it isn't, I have no idea), then it's very much for your benefit that everyone else who can have, does - that's what the whole concept of herd immunity is about.

“I’m trying for a baby/have a needle phobia/suffer from anxiety” just isn’t good enough.

And that's true because you say so, is it?

@Peaceiseveryrhing it's not blackmail. Blackmail is demanding money from someone in return for not revealing compromising or damaging information about them.

My point is that I AM NOT ANTI-VACC. Anybody accusing me of this is obviously angry and intent on sticking their fingers in their ears.

So you'll have the vaccine in what - 10 years or so when nobody's died from it? Presumably until then you'll stay on permanent lockdown?

Otherwise you're depending on others having taken the vaccine, affording you a level of herd immunity, which would be massively hypocritical of you. Other people's lives are what - expendable - as long as you can continue your life as you see fit, I guess...

If you are letting people in and not checking they're vaccinated - then what about all the other customers (who i can well imagine in certain circumstances might be the majority) who say "I'm not coming in unless you're checking vaccination certificates"

Depends who your clientele are. The expensive french restaurant down the road from me who has an older clientele maybe this could happen but not in the pub across the road from me which is full of young families as it has a play area or my friends bar/restaurants which are in very busy high traffic areas. We went for a meal on Christmas Eve in a very niace Cheshire area. It was heaving. Many restaurants and bars. I’d never seen it so busy. People trying to get one last meal and night out before lock down happened. No way are they going to get bouncers on door and asking for Vac IDs. It isn’t going happen.

Plus all the women have to say is - I’m trying to get pregnant - and they are exempt!

Your totally underestimating the financial difficulties the hospitality industry is in. When those doors open - they open to everyone.

Plus all the women have to say is - I’m trying to get pregnant - and they are exempt!

You only think people would turn away in their droves if they wasn’t checking Vac IDs because you would. Some people might but I can tell you - you would be in the minority. Most people would reason that they had had their vac so should be ok and off they would trot for a Sunday lunch in the local pub. The under thirties wouldn’t give a shiny shit. They just want to be allowed back out again

People would be up in arms if it was to do with race or sexuality, etc.

Well of course they would - those are immutable characteristics, not a choice! They also aren't highly contagious and we aren't currently in the middle of a life-threatening sexuality crisis. FFS.

They also aren't highly contagious and we aren't currently in the middle of a life-threatening sexuality crisis. FFS

Comment of the thread 🏆

My point is that I AM NOT ANTI-VACC. Anybody accusing me of this is obviously angry and intent on sticking their fingers in their ears

If you won't get this vax you are anti vax. You are anti-vax. If you don't like the label don't embody it.

Legal positions can change. Arguing from a legal position is the coward's approach.

No, it isn’t, when others are blithely ignoring the legal position, using “is” when they mean “should be”.

Nobody will be forced, we will all have the right to have it or not. But with choices come consequences and with rights come responsibilities. For certain things, such as travel or attending some events, you may be required to be vaccinated- you can chose not to but with that comes the consequences. Your choice though.

I do think it should be required for certain jobs- I’m a Dr and am required to have certain vaccinations (prior to covid) in order to be employed by the NHS (and most private healthcare providers). This is for patient safety. Is this blackmail? I don’t think it is. There are very few exceptions to this rule. I think it should apply to other workplaces (e.g hospitals, care homes) dealing with vulnerable people- for the protection of others. You can chose not to have the vaccine, but the consequence is that you cannot work in certain places.

Your totally underestimating the financial difficulties the hospitality industry is in. When those doors open - they open to everyone.

As i said: it will be entirely up to an establishment to decide which would be their bigger risk. Alienating the non-vaxed or the vaxed and I would assume that any business worth its salt would know its customers.

As for pubs heaving with families - given the absolute convolutions i've seen in some convos here and absolute (I don't want to say "hysteria" but i can't think of a good substitute) about people going in shops with kids, or as a pair, or with a mask under their nose or whatever - i simply cannot imagine that after the first wave of relief that people can go out again, that some people/families won't be going to places for fear of encountering the unvaxed.

Frankly? I don't care one way or the other about people getting vaccinations. My hope is that as many people as possible will be vaccinated (much as i hope everyone who can takes up the MMR for their kids) to protect those who can't have it. And that if you don't have the vaccination and are open about it, you can be sure that i won't be shaking your hand, going in your house, or standing closer than 2m until I've had mine and it's clear how much protection it gives. Likewise until we know if vaccination confers some protection against transmission, i won't be stopping SD/mask wearing any time soon. Post pandemic? I'll definitely choose a "please be vaxed" business over a "anyone can come" if given a choice in future.

As i said: it will be entirely up to an establishment to decide which would be their bigger risk. Alienating the non-vaxed or the vaxed and I would assume that any business worth its salt would know its customers

The biggest risk is going bankrupt, losing their business and losing their home. But as I said up thread - if your clientele is predominantly older people they may lean towards this to keep their customers happy. City centre bars/restaurants - nope.

I hate this discussion, I probably shouldn't have read it.
I was injured by a medication and since then I have really bad reactions to a range of different medications that were previously safe for me. These reactions are severe and long-lasting so I honestly don't take anything at all now and wouldn't unless it was life and death.
I've also actually had covid.

So for me it's an absolute no-brainer not to have it - the choice between potentially suffering for several months, or no risk at all.

I have a horrible feeling I'm going to be put down as a vaccine refuser though and have my life and choices massively curtailed. I'd have the vaccine if I could just for an easy life but I can't risk it.

I have no idea if my doctors will support my choice and give me an exemption or not.

Every time I read these sorts of discussions, and the vitriol, I feel fucking suicidal. At worst I'll never see my family in another country again.

Every time I read these sorts of discussions, and the vitriol, I feel fucking suicidal. At worst I'll never see my family in another country again.

It won’t come to that. Pandemics end. People will calm down. They’re scared.

MaxNormal

For people who are genuinely exempt due to allergy or similar, the same expectation do not apply. In fact, more people being vaccinated should make people who genuinely cannot have the vaccine safer. But it would be helpful for their to be criteria to prevent every other person claiming exemption, which would be a nightmare from a medical point of view- we’d be inundated with people requesting exemption certificates.

Although suspect their will be a profitable market for fake exemption certificates soon enough, so perhaps it won’t matter.

Your rights end where another's begin.

You can choose to not vaccinate, but if it puts other people at risk - you don't get to make that choice.

Maxnormal:
So for me it's an absolute no-brainer not to have it - the choice between potentially suffering for several months, or no risk at all.

I'm sorry about your experiences, it sounds awful. But you're not weighing up potential suffering versus nothing. You should be weighing up potential suffering Vs potential COVID.

In your shoes, I would probably choose the same, but you at least need to be honest about the risks.

@jacks11 and therein lies the problem for me.
I'm possibly catastrophising, I need to have a proper chat with my consultant who I'm due to see in a month. I'm frightened though, what if they don't deem me "genuinely exempt"?
That's why I'm hoping it doesn't come to that but apparently that's what everyone desperately wants, and anyone not taking the vaccine is hated and called a thick cunt.

@KrisAkabusi I've had covid, it was mild for me.

@KrisAkabusi

Maxnormal: So for me it's an absolute no-brainer not to have it - the choice between potentially suffering for several months, or no risk at all.

I'm sorry about your experiences, it sounds awful. But you're not weighing up potential suffering versus nothing. You should be weighing up potential suffering Vs potential COVID.

In your shoes, I would probably choose the same, but you at least need to be honest about the risks.

How fucking patronising.

Covid isn’t an automatic death sentence. In fact there is a 98% survival rate. The average age of covid death is 82. If your young fit and healthy your probably gonna be ok if your not you should take the vaccine. For 80% of the population it’s either symptomless or cold/flu like.

I’m sure OP know what the risks are to herself.

I’m sure OP know what the risks are to herself

I imagine she does. But she needs to think about other people as well as herself. That's literally the point.

@SushiSoozie I'm not the OP but with the best will in the world I'm not risking another relapse. I've donated blood all my adult life, been on the bone marrow and organ doner registers and taken part in a clinical trial.
But asking that of me is very far beyond what is reasonable. I can't have another year of suffering and being non-functional, sorry.