Forcing vaccination

[Peaceiseveryrhing]

Just read this on the Beeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55718553

Personally, I think it's outrageous that employees may insist on vaccination and airlines preventing travel.

A communistic approach!

I’m astonished at the people who think essentially mandatory vaccines are ok. This is mind blowing with huge implications

No one has said anything about making a covid vaccine mandatory. You'll always have a choice.
If your choice means you're refused entry to an event, a career or to travel then that's the consequences you'll have to live with. It already happens and no one seems to make a huge song and dance about it.

I pointed out earlier that you can't enlist in the military without being vaccinated but here's a list of just what you need to join (the navy at least).

MMR 1 and 2
Meningitis ACWY and Meningitis B
Diphtheria, Tetanus and Polio
The BCG Tuberculosis vaccine
HPV Vaccine (for females only)
Yellow fever
Typhoid
Diphtheria, Tetanus and Polio
Hepatitis A
Hepatitis B
Anthrax
Screening for Rubella if you are working in medicine or healthcare

If you refuse any of the above vaccines you will not be allowed to join the navy. Can I ask if you are so concerned about medical autonomy why you aren't out campaigning for the military to drop these requirements?

Several countries, e.g. Australia make vaccination a prerequisite for children being allowed a school place. No vaccine, no school place.

I very much doubt that 100000 people in the UK are going to die because of the vaccine, but I’m fairly sure that several hundred thousand more will die when they catch COVID because of the scaremongering put out there by antivaxxers.

I find it interesting that there are several people, some of which I’ve seen on this thread, who claim that if you don’t agree to donate your organs on your death then you shouldn’t be entitled to a transplant. And yet those same people are arguing that anyone should be able to refuse the vaccination because some discredited quack said so on the internet?

Tbh in the U.K. I just can’t see a vaccine passport as there are too many variables of why people might not have it.

Eg.. of your trying for a baby it’s advised you don’t have the vaccine. So on that basis alone all child baring age women could say ‘I can’t have it we’re trying for a baby’ Are restaurants really going to turn women trying for families away? Are they balls. Once society opens back up again business owners are going to want everybody back in spending much needed money.

Plus turning a female away for not having the vaccine because she is trying for a family is sex discrimination.

I don't understand what the people wanting mandatory vaccination think they would acheive?

Do you really believe you will achieve herd immunity with vaccines that aren't even guaranteed to stop transmission?

Do you really not see the selfishness of wanting the UK to use up huge numbers of the world's vaccines to vaccinate people who are highly unlikely to get very sick, i.e. children and the healthy young, when poorer countries cannot even get the minimum number of vaccines for their old and vulnerable?

@Buccanarab

I’m astonished at the people who think essentially mandatory vaccines are ok. This is mind blowing with huge implications

No one has said anything about making a covid vaccine mandatory. You'll always have a choice.
If your choice means you're refused entry to an event, a career or to travel then that's the consequences you'll have to live with. It already happens and no one seems to make a huge song and dance about it.

I pointed out earlier that you can't enlist in the military without being vaccinated but here's a list of just what you need to join (the navy at least).

MMR 1 and 2
Meningitis ACWY and Meningitis B
Diphtheria, Tetanus and Polio
The BCG Tuberculosis vaccine
HPV Vaccine (for females only)
Yellow fever
Typhoid
Diphtheria, Tetanus and Polio
Hepatitis A
Hepatitis B
Anthrax
Screening for Rubella if you are working in medicine or healthcare

If you refuse any of the above vaccines you will not be allowed to join the navy. Can I ask if you are so concerned about medical autonomy why you aren't out campaigning for the military to drop these requirements?

No that’s not a choice it’s blackmail. Telling some one if they don’t have the vaccine they have to opt out of society is blackmail

Of course it’s mandatory if it means you can’t live a normal life.

One of the theories behind suspected a lot of long term illness in soldiers after the Gulf war was the multiple vaccinations given.

The covid vaccination hasn’t even been shown to stop transmission making this even more remarkable!

Knock yourself out if you want to join the navy.

Can people shut the fuck up about the vaccines not preventing transmission? they don’t know which is why they haven’t yet been able to state 100% declared that it stops transmission otherwise the tabloids would be all over it.

As for a woman trying for a baby, that’s a personal choice. If you have a medical reason why you don’t want the vaccine then you would be exempt, presumably with proof, just as you should IMO have medical proof that you’re exempt from wearing a mask.

“I’m trying for a baby/have a needle phobia/suffer from anxiety” just isn’t good enough.

And again, private businesses can choose to serve or not serve whoever they want, for whatever reason they want.

Not wanting people to put them and their other customers at risk is a perfectly legitimate reason to ban people from using their services.

It doesn’t stop you getting it alternate so I’m going to have a reasonable hunch it will still be transmissible as you cough away

So I won’t shut the fuck up about anything

I hope to god that serious side effects of this vaccine are rare if you get your way. DH and I have a friend whose child is disabled from a rare side effect - there is fuck all government support. We are very cautious vaccinators

@AlternativePerspective

Can people shut the fuck up about the vaccines not preventing transmission? they don’t know which is why they haven’t yet been able to state 100% declared that it stops transmission otherwise the tabloids would be all over it.

As for a woman trying for a baby, that’s a personal choice. If you have a medical reason why you don’t want the vaccine then you would be exempt, presumably with proof, just as you should IMO have medical proof that you’re exempt from wearing a mask.

“I’m trying for a baby/have a needle phobia/suffer from anxiety” just isn’t good enough.

I have a pretty severe needle phobia. I did ODP training (NHS and patient facing) so had to have several tests and jabs. Two nurses were needed, I had one needle per appointment, and I was given them at the end of the day with a 1 hour appointment booked. I still had a proper meltdown each time. I put myself through it because my career counted on it. Since then, I have also been restrained and forcibly injected when under section in a psychiatric hospital. Nowadays, I can't have anyone near me at for anything medical. I have no idea what my blood pressure is. So sorry I am "selfish" or an utter granny killing turd, but I wont be having this vaccine.

@AlternativePerspective

Everyone should have a choice and they should not have restrictions put in place if they don’t have it A private business has the right to refuse anyone for any reason other than e.g. protected characteristics.

Plenty of bars/restaurants/other venues have dress codes for instance. If you choose not to adhere to that dress code, then you don’t come in. It’s as simple as that.

This is no different. If you choose not to be vaccinated against COVID, then you don’t come in. So you have a choice. You either get a COVID vaccination, or you don’t go to ticketmaster events or fly abroad.

And if other countries ban non vaccinated people then the airlines here should do the same in order to be held responsible for bringing those people home when they’re refused entry.

I know people that own bars. They would not turn people away if they didn’t show a vaccine card. It’s just not going to happen.

I don't really give a shit about the legal position. My argument is purely moral

Then your argument is lightweight nonsense. The legal position is what counts.

Vaccines by nature of reducing the severity of a virus reduce it's ability to replicate and cause symptoms. This reduces how well the virus can spread.

What is not currently known is how much of an impact on transmission a mass vaccine program will have. We know it will have an impact and likely a very significant one. So yeah, people really do need to stop saying that the vaccine does not stop people from catching it.

To add, I don't travel and have no desire to go into healthcare where perhaps vaccinations are needed. But insisting on them for everyday things... no, just fuck off.

@AStudyinPink

I don't really give a shit about the legal position. My argument is purely moral

Then your argument is lightweight nonsense. The legal position is what counts.

Legal positions can change. Arguing from a legal position is the coward's approach.

No that’s not a choice it’s blackmail. Telling some one if they don’t have the vaccine they have to opt out of society is blackmail

Why would they have to opt out?? They can still participate in society, there will just be certain things they can't do, as is the case now.

Have you voiced your concerns to the government that the military and medical professions are blackmailing people into being vaccinated?

I'm also really not sure how you think telling those who are vulnerable to covid that they either have to opt out of society or accept they have to risk their lives to participate is acceptable, but to tell the tiny minority of antivaxxers who don't want to vaccinate the inverse is somehow the most heinous act of the 21st century.

@AlternativePerspective

And again, private businesses can choose to serve or not serve whoever they want, for whatever reason they want.

Not wanting people to put them and their other customers at risk is a perfectly legitimate reason to ban people from using their services.

A private business has no right to know about any aspect of my medical records, vaccinations included.

@MaxNormal

MN is an awful place right now

The tone is absolutely horrible, isn't it? No allowence for any doubts, fears, nuanced discussion at all, and the tone of some of the posts is genuinely disturbing.

I've seen posts where people who are scared of vaccines have had sympathetic and factual replies. For example I've seen posts where HCP aren't sure or where people are told that if their parents don't want the vaccine then not to pressure them otherwise. I think people are right to correct OP on her misinformation too.

The OP in this case is very combative. It's capitalism if private companies want to impose conditions for starters If it was communism vaccination would be law and decreed by the government.

I think some people will have end up vaccinating because they want to travel and go to gigs rather than believing in the health benefits but I think that people get yellow fever or malaria medication to do the same already rather than researching what yellow fever is and wanting to prevent themselves catching it.

Numerous scientists have explained on here that if there are side effects with these vaccines then the volunteer testers would have experienced them because the nature of vaccinations means that side effects are clear in the short term. MRNA vaccines aren't new technology and things have been quick because companies have pretty much had blank cheques to move things along and setting up manufacturing happened at the same time as development. Numerous people in the industry testify to the fact that a major proportion of development time is taken with fundraising which makes sense when it costs multi billion dollars. It might have helped some nervous people feel better if they'd sat on the vaccine for an acceptable length of time to the sceptics but the moral and economic arguments don't allow for that.

@SarahBellam

But why wouldn’t you want to be vaccinated? Do you want this to drag on for another few years?

Because the vaccine will guarantee immunity. As simple as that. Why should I get blackmailed into it?

A private business has no right to know about any aspect of my medical records, vaccinations included.

A Doctor's note is sometimes needed for activities like flying on a plane

A private business has no right to know about any aspect of my medical records, vaccinations included.

Tell that to your life insurance provider, and the huge number of businesses that require, at the very least, a health questionnaire before they employ you.

It’s just really mind blowing that posters actually think it will be made illegal to enter public spaces with out the vaccine - because that’s where it would have to go to get complete compliance. I know people in the hospitality trade they just wouldn’t force this issue. They’ve taken a catastrophic blow financially and when they are allowed open do you think they are going to turn away 20/30/40 year olds because they haven’t had the vaccine yet? That age group is their bread and butter especially so for ticket master events. It’s just not going to happen. And realistically the 20 year olds getting vaccinated is probably going to happen by the end of the year - if they turn up for it. Do you think the hospitality trade are going to wait that long?

@Aposterhasnoname

A private business has no right to know about any aspect of my medical records, vaccinations included.

Tell that to your life insurance provider, and the huge number of businesses that require, at the very least, a health questionnaire before they employ you.

I don't have life insurance and I don't work.

What is the definition of "optional activity"?
I mean, education should be a fundamental right -- is that "optional"?
How about having a party, or travel to see close family.

Vaccinating kids against measles (which kills kids) is different from vaccinating kids to protect adults (the relatively quite small % of adults who work in schools who are CEV to C19 & for whom vaccination might not work).

If we say kids must be vaccinated to protect the adults... does that mean teachers must have measles jab to protect the kids? IIRC, the govt has absorbed liabilities for vaccine harms or failures -- like if someone dies from C19 after being fully vaccinated against it. But what if someone could prove they caught C19 off someone who refused vaccination against C19, and then the catcher was badly harmed by C19 - should that refusenik be held liable for the harm?

We are on such weird ground when demanding compulsory vaccinations. Will never get it right, but how do any of these decisions get made except by seat of pants which means inherently irrational?

If it was just about individual health then ok- but that is not the case. Your right to travel, go to gigs, eat out in restaurants etc does not override a need to maintain public health from a disease that's killing thousands of people every day. Until we have evidence that the vaccine has no impact on reducing transmission (which as I said above is incredibly unlikely) then you should assume that it does help. And if you don't want to have it due to personal preference rather than valid medical exemption- then you should accept that your social activities will be restricted. Its not fair to endanger vulnerable members of the community who may not be able to vaccinate or for who vaccination will not be effective.