Forcing vaccination

[Peaceiseveryrhing]

Just read this on the Beeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55718553

Personally, I think it's outrageous that employees may insist on vaccination and airlines preventing travel.

A communistic approach!

Cute eat:

We also don’t know the effects of these vaccines on fertility. Not a risk I want to take.

But there are suggestions that COVID has an effect on fertility (low levels, so far only in men, so more data needed, but still a suggestion)! So using your argument, you should get vaccinated.

www.bionews.org.uk/page_153871

I’m fine with anti vaxxers as long as they have some relevant scientific training and haven’t just read stuff on the internet.
I know quite a few doctors, they’re all having it. I’ll go with that. A local covid denier has died this weekend, aged 30. These people who put this stuff on the internet are complicit in his death as far as I’m concerned.

My children can’t have it. I don’t want them getting on a plane with people who refuse it.
If we don’t vaccinate and get rid of this we are going to have to live in semi lockdown for fucking ever.

Sigh. Coercive action, including removal of access to the ordinary amenities of life, equates to force. It is not a “consequence”, it is a punishment.

No its really not. If you want access to societal norms you also have a responsibility to protect those in said society. If you don't want to then that's fine but you get to put others in danger. If anything access to these things is a reward for doing the bare minimum (it's really not asking a lot) to protect the most vulnerable.

My children can’t have it. I don’t want them getting on a plane with people who refuse it.

That’s a reasonable concern, but the answer is not to put them on a plane.

No its really not. If you want access to societal norms you also have a responsibility to protect those in said society.

Rubbish. No I don’t have a responsibility to protect others to go about my ordinary business of earning a living and accessing healthcare etc. You are making this up. I understand why, but it’s still a complete invention. You’re stating what you would like to happen as a fact, but it isn’t.

@minchinfin and @GreenWillow
I suggest you read this study which will explain both Covid vaccine potential for herd immunity AND the fact that “herd immunity” doesn’t mean zero community transmission. In other words, you are both right but are talking about different things.

ccdd.hsph.harvard.edu/2020/12/17/covid-19-vaccines-and-herd-immunity/

‘Suggestions’ are nowhere near enough to tip the balance though.

More healthy under 60s have died on the road during the pandemic than have died of Covid.

There needs to be some rock solid evidence that the vaccines prevent community transmission before it could be considered a good idea for a healthy young adult to have it.

I’m happy to be proven wrong (I sincerely hope I am wrong) but we can only proceed on the strength of the data that we currently have, and that is, unfortunately, that vaccines do not provide sterilising immunity.

@AStudyinPink

My children can’t have it. I don’t want them getting on a plane with people who refuse it.

That’s a reasonable concern, but the answer is not to put them on a plane.

It isn't. It's not an answer that someone who cannot be protected, has to stay at home so someone else could be special. That's what our society isn't about. At least it shouldn't be.

Don't get to*

If anyone is going to be singled out as the group not allowed to get on planes, it's always going to be the utterly depraved selfish pigs who won't vaccinate. You can't have your cake and eat it. There wouldn't be a necessity for 'an answer' if everyone shut up and took the vaccine without complaint or conspiracy.

As a relative of someone very unwell since their vaccine this horrified me

FFS @CuteBear that is exactly what I said they don’t know YET!!!! 🙄🙄🤪. There’s research going on all over the world looking at it but anecdotal evidence says it most likely will to some degree. It’s to what degree, they’re researching along with the vaccine roll out.

I am a contractor. Just looked at a job and the company is insisting that all new staff and contractors have had the jab.

So, no jab = no job.

I have no problems with this.

It is discrimination, but a Christian isn't going to give me covid. An unvaccinated person will

Rubbish. No I don’t have a responsibility to protect others to go about my ordinary business

So you ignore traffic laws? Steal from people because you want things? Push old ladies out of the way to get to your destination? Sneeze in people's faces? Shout abuse at people for no reason?

No of course you don't because every day you act in a way that protects your fellow man and allows you to fit into society. That's how it works and always has. You have responsibility in a society or you chose not to and face the consequences.

According to the study I just posted, there are two ways that vaccination can get us back to normal life:

1. It is almost certain that most vaccines against SARS-CoV-2 will reduce transmission and thus contribute to population (or “herd”) immunity. The degree of that contribution is unknown, but evidence from animal and human studies to date and evidence from other infections leads this observer to think that the vaccine may reduce transmission 50-70%. This is not a confident prediction and could well be wrong in either direction. If it were in this range, and if R0 were upwards of 3 in many parts of the world (also uncertain), it is quite possible that achievable levels of coverage might not be enough, on their own, to prevent sustained transmission, though they might be close.

2. Sustained herd immunity is not the only value of a vaccine or the only way it could help us return to a more normal life. If high coverage can be achieved in those most at risk of severe outcomes, we could achieve a state where virus continues to circulate (at a level reduced by partial herd immunity) but the toll on the health system and the mortality toll is dramatically reduced because fewer highly vulnerable people are infected, and even fewer of those experience symptoms, thanks to direct protection by the vaccine. In my personal opinion, this is the most likely path to a more normal life in many countries.

If anyone is going to be singled out as the group not allowed to get on planes, it's always going to be the utterly depraved selfish pigs who won't vaccinate. You can't have your cake and eat it.

We’ll see. Because it sounds like illegal healthcare discrimination to me.*

*With the caveat that of course other states have a right to insist people are vaccinated as a condition of a visa. Because that isn’t a right.

I have no problems with this

The company will have a few problems though when they are on the receiving end of personal injury and Equalities Act claims.

So you ignore traffic laws? Steal from people because you want things? Push old ladies out of the way to get to your destination? Sneeze in people's faces? Shout abuse at people for no reason?

I don’t break the law.

@ginastill

It is discrimination, but a Christian isn't going to give me covid. An unvaccinated person will

But only if you are also unvaccinated can an unvaccinated person give you Covid. Are you planning on not being vaccinated?

The company will have a few problems though when they are on the receiving end of personal injury and Equalities Act claims.

Yep. The first person to become seriously ill as a result of a vaccine (even a vaccine that is overwhelmingly considered safe and effective) will sue the shit out of them. Because the company, by virtue of its insistence that they have a vaccine they wouldn’t otherwise have had, will be taking that responsibility on itself.

OK maybe you dont break the law but do you treat people with kindness, respect and dignity? Do you act in a way that generally allows you to be accepted into a society? Do you respect your work code of conduct?

It's not illegal to not do those things but if you went about being a selfish and disagreeable twat in work and out in public all the time you'd soon face the consequences of your own actions.

Any airlines, holiday companies and all similar businesses will all similarly soon shut up about people having to be vaccinated before using their services when they are threatened with court action. Also loss of business when only a fraction of the population has been even offered vaccination when they want to book trips.

I'm not an anti-vaccer by any means but there must be realism and common sense in how this is approached. Basically unless governments around the world make vaccination mandatory (which they won't because of the potential personal injury claims) no organisation can legally make it mandatory to have a vaccination, either for their customer or employees

I'm sure many will try but their actions will soon be found wanting. And out of pocket.

@ginastill

It is discrimination, but a Christian isn't going to give me covid. An unvaccinated person will

A vaccinated person will still be able to give you Covid.

Here is a link to JVT discussing this point.

@CuteBear this mechanism of limited liability has been in place for years and used for many drugs/vaccines. In this case though, the government will accept a degree of responsibility through a scheme that has been in place for some time:

www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment/eligibility

It is not done because a company is intentionally trying to deceive or harm a population and I expect that if any damage could have potentially been identified during trials then the companies will still have some liability. The reason it is in place is so that companies are not discouraged from bringing potentially lifesaving treatments to market because of “the unknown”.

In terms of fertility/teratogenicity, animal trials conducted have shown no ill effects even when given at concentrations much higher than what a human receives. You can find this information on the vaccine summary of product characteristics.Granted animals are not humans, however the mechanism of the vaccine would reasonably lead me to believe that simply having covid will cause the same fertility issues. There have been plenty of women conceiving after covid and also having covid whilst pregnant. Now, does this mean that you have been living alone in a bunker in order to dodge covid as much as the vaccine? I have had covid and am TTC... After looking into the facts, I have still had the vaccine.

Lastly a word of advice, anyone with scientific credentials knows that a Google search does not result in reliable information so actually if you are judging those who developed the vaccine of the same research standards as yourself then I can see why you would be worried 😂