Forcing vaccination

[Peaceiseveryrhing]

Just read this on the Beeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55718553

Personally, I think it's outrageous that employees may insist on vaccination and airlines preventing travel.

A communistic approach!

@Coyoacan

None of those news articles say that it has been proven to be directly related to the vaccine.

@IDKNABYBIF22

I'm still waiting to see your proof that the event happened days after the application of the vaccine?

Surely this is all a matter of choice and no compulsion. I believe based on mutual health and safety science that an employer or service provider like an airline can for overall mutual health and safety benefit mandate certain contractual terms and obligations including being Covid tested accurately negatively or in due course being vaccinated. One always needs to look at both sides of the “argument” and judge reasonably and rationally as to reason and whether it is proportional and pragmatic in the circumstances based on proven undisputed best science. Many nations including the UK (finally) only accept visitors that are tested Covid negative from approved nations only and surely this for mutual protection will be extended to vaccination as is a historical necessity with precedent based along the lines of many preexisting diseases such as yellow fever etc in many nations globally.

@Coyoacan

www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-mexico-vaccine-idUSKBN29C05D

Odd that there's no update seeing as it was nearly a month ago.

So Reuters does not think it is related whereas our Secretary of Health does think it is related.

You really do have a cheek calling strangers on the internet liars because they have a different opinion from you.

You have a strange idea of what communism is. This seems to me to be the reverse: essentially it's private businesses taking a commercial decision that its better for their businesses not to have unvaccinated people on the premises/in their planes. In a capitalist society, that's what they're allowed to do.

Sorry if this has been asked, or answered, does the vaccine stop someone passing it on? Or does it just stop the person who take it getting sick?

Better proof if a negative test. Na vaccine doesn’t guarantee immunity.

@ Arobase

“You have a strange idea of what communism is. This seems to me to be the reverse: essentially it's private businesses taking a commercial decision that its better for their businesses not to have unvaccinated people on the premises/in their planes. In a capitalist society, that's what they're allowed to do.”

Agreed and it is your choice whether to seek alternative employment or airline that meet your specific requirements. You are not forced to do anything but the private business can insist on their highest mutual health and safety protocols to mitigate as much as pragmatically and reasonably possible to protect as many potentially impacted people as possible. However although the science is agreed on general health benefits of vaccination to limit severe Covid disease - it is yet to be confirmed if being vaccinated (twice) also prevents being infected or indeed infecting others.

Why are we so much more precious about bodily autonomy for vaccines than for anything else?

It's fine to confine people to their homes, ban them from seeing or hugging relatives and fine them for walking along with a coffee, BUT it's not okay to put even the TINIEST amount of pressure on people to have a vaccine--which is the thing that is actually going to get us out of this nightmare?

Yellow fever vaccines and others have been required for years. I am fine with requiring either vaccine OR quarantine for travel.

I think until it's PROVEN that vaccines stop transmission then it should be a personal choice. A healthy 20 or 30 year old has exactly the same chance of dying (or suffering long-term) from covid as it has from getting the serious allergic reaction to vaccine, so it should be left to people to decide which risk they prefer. And before you start with your 'I want everyone vaccinated to protect me', think if you're willing to stop driving the car, because you pose a risk to others. At the end of the day it's not essential is it? I'm scared of dying in an accident so I think you should all stop driving to protect ME.

@Lovingmusicrightnow

does the vaccine stop someone passing it on? Or does it just stop the person who take it getting sick

They haven't been tested for transmission and infection, so we don't know. They did double-blind trials, where half the participants were given the vaccine and half the participants were given a placebo, then they counted how many of each got sick in the normal course of their lives and how seriously.

Not allowing admittance to concerts/travel/shops and restaurants to those that choose not to be vaccinated is entirely reasonable.
I would also support legislation to prevent anyone that had chosen not to be vaccinated from receiving NHS treatment for coronovirus.

It is still a choice. I work in a field where flu vaccines are mandatory (unless a valid medical exemption). I CHOOSE to continue in my work and have the vaccination even though I am super low risk and know it is not always that effective because I am protecting other people and I want to continue my job. However I could equally choose to do a different job and not be vaccinated.

@Peaceiseveryrhing

Just read this on the Beeb

[[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55718553]]

Personally, I think it's outrageous that employees may insist on vaccination and airlines preventing travel.

A communistic approach!

100% with you. Its communistic indeed. State knows best and citizens treat the state like a friendly mummy and daddy who knows best. Have people not seen the social credit system in China, banned from travel if someone's neighbour has reported on them for dropping litter or speaking badly about the CCP?

If you are having rights removed it's an underhand way of forcing you whilst getting the public to blame you for being victimised( pretty much all the comments on this thread as evidence). Not being able to participate in normal life creates a two tier caste system of people the media are painting as selfishdangerousdisease_carriers that will lead to no good. These people, me, being demonized are your fellow human beings.

If the government had been more reliable, (masks/ no masks),
transparent ( admitting they are supporting companies they have shares in/ not disclosing who SAGE are)
Competent ( let's send sick elderly people back to their care homes and refuse to tell you if they have covid)
Honest ( making a rule for the people and breaking it in their private time)
Life honouring ( sanctioning DIY abortions that have caused outcry amongst nurses and led to complications and misuse/ secretly signing DNR on elderly patients without telling relatives back in March)
Well then I might take their advice on complete trust. I trust people based on their behaviour, that doesn't make me a conspiracy theorist.

As it is this vaccine is experimental. You cannot test long term effects of a drug that is 6 months old. If my survival rate is 99.9 % why would I have the vaccine?

Finally so far the government is not saying that vaccination stops transmission. So if my transmission doesn't change your risk then its no ones business if I choose to take my chance catching covid. Unless you think I'm selfish for maybe taking an NHS bed, in which case you will need to start policing peoples weight, drinking habits and lifestyle choices that increase their chances of going to hospital.

I despair of what has happened to the British public, thinking they can abolish death by bullying strangers who think differently.

@Propagandalf

If you can have the vaccine and you are able to, then you should get the vaccine imo.

Allergic reaction? Then yes that's a valid excuse, or at least seek an alternative vaccine.

Asthma? That's also a valid excuse but again seek an alternative. I know an asthmatic who would take the Pfizer vaccine, but was able to take the Oxford one.

Religious reasons? Not an excuse. Saving yourself and others should take precedent.

Microchips? You can fuck right off.

Anti-vaxxers are a hindrance for us getting back to normal. And I don't mean the 'new normal' as that can sod right off too.

Religious reasons are not an excuse. Saving others should take precedence?. Sorry but you clearly dont understand what you are saying by suggesting there us one route to saving people.

You think you are saving people by following the science but you dont actually know the science. You are following the authority of the people in charge who explain the foreign language of immunology and virology to you. This is no different to people following the authority of the church went they couldnt read Latin and had to trust the authorities weren't corrupt and explaining the world to them without error, bias or political corruption.
I hope you know how that went..

@IDKNABYBIF22

www.businessworld.in/article/Physician-in-Mexico-admitted-to-ICU-after-receiving-Pfizer-vaccine/03-01-2021-360862/

"The 32-year-old doctor who received the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine was admitted to the intensive care unit ... after developing rashes, convulsions, muscle weakness and breathing difficulties within half an hour after vaccination," the ministry said.

Obviously nobody should be forced to have it, but I'm still amazed at the stupidity of many of the anti-vaxxers.

An anti-vax colleague sent me an article today with the title 'Vaccinated People May Spread the Virus'. She'd somehow missed the part where it said the vaccine results were encouraging. The main point was that it doesn't stop you passing it on, but neither does going unvaccinated. Either way you are contagious, but with the vaccine you may be more likely not to be badly affected.

You are following the authority of the people in charge who explain the foreign language of immunology and virology to you. This is no different to people following the authority of the church went they couldnt read Latin and had to trust the authorities weren't corrupt and explaining the world to them without error, bias or political corruption.

Yes, so let's trust some conspiracy theorist on YouTube instead, right?

Look what happened at Disneyland where an unvaccinated American women resulted in smallpox spreading to four states and accounting for 12% of that year's infections. It's almost unheard of for people to catch smallpox nowadays and that is pretty much exclusively down the the vaccines.

I would also support legislation to prevent anyone that had chosen not to be vaccinated from receiving NHS treatment for coronovirus.

This is a dreadful attitude. Anyway, you'd have to apply that to other health situations for fairness. What about smokers? No treatment if they develop lung cancer. Sunbed users? No treatment if they get melanoma. People who eat too much junk food? No treatment for diabetes. Etc.

The government make far more on tobacco taxes then they spend on treating smoking related illnesses.

@Bagelsandbrie

I think there’s a difference between forcing people to have the vaccine and saying they can’t travel / enter shopping centres / go to concerts etc unless they provide proof of having had it. If people want normal life back the vaccine is the only way we can do that.

Exactly. Choices have consequences.

@Propagandalf

If you can have the vaccine and you are able to, then you should get the vaccine imo.

Allergic reaction? Then yes that's a valid excuse, or at least seek an alternative vaccine.

Asthma? That's also a valid excuse but again seek an alternative. I know an asthmatic who would take the Pfizer vaccine, but was able to take the Oxford one.

Religious reasons? Not an excuse. Saving yourself and others should take precedent.

Microchips? You can fuck right off.

Anti-vaxxers are a hindrance for us getting back to normal. And I don't mean the 'new normal' as that can sod right off too.

Well said!

@DuaneAgain

You are following the authority of the people in charge who explain the foreign language of immunology and virology to you. This is no different to people following the authority of the church went they couldnt read Latin and had to trust the authorities weren't corrupt and explaining the world to them without error, bias or political corruption.

Yes, so let's trust some conspiracy theorist on YouTube instead, right?

Look what happened at Disneyland where an unvaccinated American women resulted in smallpox spreading to four states and accounting for 12% of that year's infections. It's almost unheard of for people to catch smallpox nowadays and that is pretty much exclusively down the the vaccines.

There is a middle ground between complete trust in the State and agreeing only with fringe youtube opinions. If numerous eminent medics, with the same experience and Oxbridge degree as those pushing the vaccine have been forced onto youtube to air there point of view that the science is wrong well.. I have the time to hear them.

My point remains: every single poster, bar a few qualified people, are not sharing their own opinion. They are sharing the 'facts' distilled to them, facts or more correctly interpretations, they dont understand themselves but have taken on trust. Furthermore these facts come from one section of the medical community,the section employed by the government.
If the information is biased and censored you cannot make an informed opinion. The sad thing is the number of people that think they have facts and are shouting at fellow Mumsnetters when all they have is government censored information, and a fear of looking beyond it to reputable qualified scientists for fear of being mistaken for a conspiracy theorist.
Ironically the issue you raised about surge in old virus' comes about from immigration from unvaccinated countries. People tried to raise it but back then the media focus was on human rights 'all immigration is good and if you suggest a medical concern you are a bigot'. Now the ideology has changed to focusing on medical concerns and branding people as selfish if they care about human rights. Both ends are reactionary censorship that causes more division than societal benefit.
There was a time when people unquestionningly trusted Gods authority but it was torn apart because of the desire for rational thinking. Now those same people who dont believe in a supernatural moral authority because its irrational put their faith, lives and society in the hands of a very small community of politicised and fallible medics to make not just scientific but moral and spiritual decisions and believe they will be saved. To not agree with mainstream covid thinking is worse than heresy.
Knowing this hypocrisy abounds means being called selfish and stupid loses its sting somewhat.

"Bet you wouldn't apply that argument to something like saysexuality, race, gender?"

The characteristics you mention above are not contagious or deadly to others.

Keep up.