What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

[Frazzled2207]

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

[quote Baileysforchristmas]Now the EU are saying the UK compromised on vaccine safety.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/02/ursula-von-der-leyen-accuses-uk-of-compromising-on-vaccine-safety[/quote]
Van der Leyen really needs to STFU and sort out her own back garden. Is she implying that the MHRA, one of the most globally respected bodies in its field, rushed out approval with disregard for the health and safety of the British people?

That's a pretty serious accusation, and she needs to be able to back it up. Bet she can't.

I’m wondering what people who are up in arms about the eu reaction think about the fact the U.K. has ordered about 5 times more vaccines that it actually need.

I’m deeply uncomfortable about the idea that the U.K. is basically hogging vaccines at the detriment of other countries. Yes it’s eu countries but it’s also all the other countries in the world, incl poorer countries who atm don’t have access to any vaccines at all.

Does it really matter that the eu has a spat in commercial grounds/getting deliveries as they agree with AZ when the U.K. knows it has plenty of vaccines in the pipeline anyway??

@ParadiseIsland

I’m wondering what people who are up in arms about the eu reaction think about the fact the U.K. has ordered about 5 times more vaccines that it actually need.

I’m deeply uncomfortable about the idea that the U.K. is basically hogging vaccines at the detriment of other countries. Yes it’s eu countries but it’s also all the other countries in the world, incl poorer countries who atm don’t have access to any vaccines at all.

Does it really matter that the eu has a spat in commercial grounds/getting deliveries as they agree with AZ when the U.K. knows it has plenty of vaccines in the pipeline anyway??

We've been through this. Many times.

Early on, the UK ordered several different vaccines when it wasn't known which - if any - would prove viable, or when. A way better strategy than the EU's over cautious approach, the results of which we are now seeing.

And hasn't the British govt already said that they will donate excess vaccines to other countries once the British population has been vaccinated?

And how do you feel about the fact that the EU, with 5% of the world's population, has order 17% of the world's AZ stocks?

Now the EU are saying the UK compromised on vaccine safety.

I agree I think Ursula VdL needs to STFU. I thought we were supposed to be resetting our relationship with the EU after the Article 16 fiasco. Things like this really aren't helpful.

It makes you laugh though, they don’t think it’s good enough but they’re kicking up a hell of a stink that they can’t have it, you couldn’t make it up.

Now Poland are saying they won’t use AZ on the over 65’s. No one in the EU will want it at this rate.

Sorry over 60’s

@paradiseisland how can you not understand this
They ordered from various companies as no one knew who's would work, they can't then cancel contracts
Also we may need a vaccination yearly yet who knows , but the uk have said they will give excess vaccinations to other countries and have also put in a high amount of funding to covax , which I assume you have heard of

@ParadiseIsland

I’m wondering what people who are up in arms about the eu reaction think about the fact the U.K. has ordered about 5 times more vaccines that it actually need.

I’m deeply uncomfortable about the idea that the U.K. is basically hogging vaccines at the detriment of other countries. Yes it’s eu countries but it’s also all the other countries in the world, incl poorer countries who atm don’t have access to any vaccines at all.

Does it really matter that the eu has a spat in commercial grounds/getting deliveries as they agree with AZ when the U.K. knows it has plenty of vaccines in the pipeline anyway??

Nobody is hogging anything. Those countries that could afford it (including the EU) all overordered significantly before knowing which vaccines would work out, always on the understand that any surplus vaccines would be donated.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/29/canada-and-uk-among-countries-with-most-vaccine-doses-ordered-per-person

The point is not what's in the pipeline, the point is what's available in the next few weeks to get it to the most vulnerable ASAP.

Well that means there's more for those that do.

So the whole argument/threats of legal action from the EU were a complete waste of time. Great.

My dh is an EU national living in the UK. He is very anti-Commission (not anti-Europe obviously, none of us are), and is strongly pro-Brexit. He is horrified that he can't see his 87 year old mother. He will have his vaccine before she has hers, and by the summer, if she survives that long, it will be a year since he last saw her. He will never forgive himself if he cannot be there if she becomes seriously ill, so it's a highly emotive subject in our home. We also haven't seen DS1 who is at uni in EU since last summer. DH basically is hating every moment of this monumental cock up, ashamed of his politicians (the Commission is considered to be a dumping ground for failed politicians such as UvdL), but hopes it will lead to Germany forcing change on the EU sooner rather than later. Public opinion is like a tinder box amongst our wider family in Germany and Denmark at the moment. We have them on the phone every day asking for the international perspective, who to believe, what to believe.

@ParadiseIsland

I’m wondering what people who are up in arms about the eu reaction think about the fact the U.K. has ordered about 5 times more vaccines that it actually need.

I’m deeply uncomfortable about the idea that the U.K. is basically hogging vaccines at the detriment of other countries. Yes it’s eu countries but it’s also all the other countries in the world, incl poorer countries who atm don’t have access to any vaccines at all.

Does it really matter that the eu has a spat in commercial grounds/getting deliveries as they agree with AZ when the U.K. knows it has plenty of vaccines in the pipeline anyway??

3.02 times to be exact I think, not 5 times. Canada ordered 3.3 times, and EU 1.83 times. It is a sensible policy to order/pay upfront for and invest in a range of vaccines - you will always be able to sell on any excess to the less organised countries, and some will almost definitely not be approved, therefore you have to over order. None will go to waste. I don't see any problem with it. Yes the pipeline matters hugely because at this stage it's about timeliness of delivery (hence economic recovery) rather than the worry that we won't all be vaccinated at some point. Quick off the mark = quicker economic recovery.

Frazzled2207 the opinion I hear is that the AZ is less effective, so on a personal level nobody in their right mind would choose it over Pfizer, and that the trials were a botch job (trial subjects actually vaccinated were given different doses to one another and subjects given placebos were given different placebos - this certainly reduces faith that other aspects weren't botched in the rush)

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

Frazzled2207 the opinion I hear is that the AZ is less effective, so on a personal level nobody in their right mind would choose it over Pfizer, and that the trials were a botch job (trial subjects actually vaccinated were given different doses to one another and subjects given placebos were given different placebos - this certainly reduces faith that other aspects weren't botched in the rush)

And yet the world's most renowned experts - in the UK, EU, WHO, India and several other countries - have approved it for use. I'll take their word over yours.

I don’t think @UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme
Necessarily follows that view?

UfdL's comments are driven by the desperation of a person who knows she's fucked up but believes she can worm her way out of it with weaselly words. That's her character. She was Germany's own Chris Grayling before her farcial appointment as EU President. It is deeply irresponsible towards those people who will have delayed vaccines as a result or choose not to vaccinate at all, and totally mired in Brexit bitterness which she should have risen above long ago. There are riots in Belgium, Netherlands and huge anger in European press towards her so she is fighting for survival. It's just shameful.

Afaik there is no element of choice here, so am guessing there is to at least some extent in Germany? Here generally speaking it would appear most are happy to be given what comes

Oh Lord! @ParadiseIsland if you heard Matt Hancock speak he said, clealry, that when per ordering vaccines, nor knowing whther they would work or not, they chose to spend everything in the pot "Nothing would be left on the table!"

He then went on to outline what would happen with the vaccines that the UK did not need - most of which has not been verified or made, let alone delivered. Again, nothing would be left, arms would be found for every dose, across the world!

UvdL has a neat turn of phrase doesn't she? "But they resorted to emergency, 24-hour marketing authorisation procedures." and she again obfuscates the time frame (mainly because teh EMA used to work with the MHRA and would have used the same bloody protocols had they still been in the UK, partnered up!)

There can be nothing wrong with the faster authorisation as other countries, slower or not, have also authorised the same vaccines. The mithering over the % efficacy in certain age groups is the oddity. It is there because their version of SAGE chose to focus on the negative side of the data to date and SAGE chose to work along the lines of "It's as good a repsnse as most other vaccines, let's get it out there!"

@Frazzled2207 would you prefer the Russian or Chinese vaccine, i think that’s about to be approved?

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

Frazzled2207 the opinion I hear is that the AZ is less effective, so on a personal level nobody in their right mind would choose it over Pfizer, and that the trials were a botch job (trial subjects actually vaccinated were given different doses to one another and subjects given placebos were given different placebos - this certainly reduces faith that other aspects weren't botched in the rush)

That makes no sense whatsoever!

None!

Even if I accpeted your first points, which I dont (trial subjects actually vaccinated were given different doses to one another and subjects given placebos were given different placebos - this certainly reduces faith that other aspects weren't botched in the rush) highlights your lack of knowledge about scientific protocols and is, frankly, just plain daft!

Frazzled2207 you're right, I said it is the opinion I hear, not my opinion. It puzzles me how cross and defensive some people on MN get if anything negative is mentioned about the AZ vaccine. My opinion is I'd rather have Pfizer, which is lucky because I have had the Pfizer vaccine.

To say there's choice about which vaccine is an exaggeration, but certainly we can turn down one and wait for a different one. A few colleagues didn't opt in to be vaccinated in time for the first round, and have opted in now and are worried they'll be offered AZ instead of the Pfizer those who've already had the first vaccination have had.

In my very localised environment vaccines aren't yet available to people not in priority groups, but health and care workers and vulnerable people are getting vaccinated and not having appointments cancelled due to shortages or anything. There's a steady supply of vaccine so far.

[quote Baileysforchristmas]@Frazzled2207 would you prefer the Russian or Chinese vaccine, i think that’s about to be approved?[/quote]
The Russian one is very good isn't it?

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00191-4/fulltext?utm_campaign=tlcoronavirus21&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

It puzzles me how cross and defensive some people on MN get if anything negative is mentioned about the AZ vaccine. It's the crap science used to justify those comments that draws the annoyance!

My opinion is I'd rather have Pfizer, which is lucky because I have had the Pfizer vaccine. That's nice!

I think the choice argument seems bizarre to many because it seems as though people are letting perfect be the enemy of good enough.

Having the good enough AZ vaccine now is clearly better than waiting around for the marginally more effective Pfizer vaccine.

It's obviously early days for the data but while we wait for utter certaintly, the virus is strangling our way of life.

Good enough is good enough.

That's true!

All along the words used to condemn AZ and the UK authorisation have been a bit 'Ofsted' - the only time you ever hear of 'adequate' not being good enough

adequate
/ˈadɪkwət/

adjective
satisfactory or acceptable in quality or quantity.