What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

[Frazzled2207]

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Wildswim
The difference is that Boris could be voted out at the next election. How can EU citizens get rid of VdL? Or any of the Commission bigwigs?

By losing the next election. Same as Boris. Actually Boris wasn’t democratically elected was he? Only Conservative Party could vote, not all U.K. voters......[/quote]
He is an MP if that makes a difference.

Genuine question: are all Commissioners elected in their various States? I know Von Der Leyen is a German MP (I think!) Don't know about the others.

@3asAbird
Exactly. Initial U.K. delivery schedule would have been less than 2m/week. Instead of 13.5k vaccinated by mid+Feb, it is end Jan and what? 10% or over 6 million are vaccinated.

So far more vaccines flowing to U.K., and suddenly AZ says sorry EU you only get 23 m out of 40 m doses ordered for 1st Quarter 2021. (Now increased to 40 m or half of first quarter order).

That is what is so suspicious. If it were all down to manufacturing issues why is U.K. doing far more than original scheduled? You’d think U.K. would get what it originally ordered (if priority) and then EU all of whatever is left, not less than that because extra was sent to U.K.

@Avondklok

Article 16 is ONLY necessary because of Brexit. It's new and not the fault of the EU. Yes, it was wrongly handled. But all of this is media shit stirred up by British press to take away from all the bad news. Let's focus on big, bad EU, the bastards, instead of incompetence of U.K. Govt. The EU wants the vaccines it paid for, and wants to ensure it can protect its citizens. Most of the rest is smoke and mirrors. Why not focus on the difficulty getting deliveries into NI instead?

Yes - this - so many posters now faux outraging that the EU triggered article 16 for a few hours without letting NI or ROI know.

Here's the reality of Brexit for NI

Can't order plants or seeds from GB
Amazon has removed some listings for items to NI
Some retailers are choosing not to sell into NI

And this is because BJ and his cronies wanted a hard Brexit and voted every single acceptable proposal that Theresa May put forward and eventually forced her out and delivered a worse Brexit outcome for NI

No one in England cared about NI when he did that

U.K. asked for delivery schedule to be increased to 2m doses per week. So obviously, the original contract in May must have had delivery schedule of less than 2m/ week.

Article here -

May 18, 2020;

AstraZeneca Plc will make as many as 30 million doses of coronavirus vaccine available to the U.K. by September and has committed to delivering 100 million doses this year. The U.K. will be the first country to get access to the vaccine should it be successful.

fortune.com/2020/05/18/astrazeneca-vaccine-doses-september-covid19/

I just went back and listened to that bit again.

EU believes that AZ gave away EU doses in the past few weeks.

That's the opinion that started this off isn't it, not a fact.

Those doses were sent prior to the EU having passed AZ for use. In a pandemic nobody is going to stockpile limited shelf life vaccines for a month or two waiting for a customer to make up their mind.

I suspect that's where the real issue lies.

@CuriousaboutSamphire the doses have a shelf life of 6 months from what I have read?

Genuine question: are all Commissioners elected in their various States? I know Von Der Leyen is a German MP (I think!) Don't know about the others.

Every five years, the European Council - made up of EU heads of state and government - proposes a Commission presidential candidate to the European Parliament. This candidate for president is proposed based on the political makeup of the parliament following European Parliament elections; typically, they will be chosen from the largest political family in the Parliament. If an absolute majority of members of Parliament support the nominee, he or she is elected.

The president-elect selects potential Vice-Presidents and Commissioners based on suggestions from EU countries. The list of nominees has to be approved by all EU heads of state or government, meeting in the European Council. Each nominee must appear before the parliamentary committee with responsibility for his or her proposed portfolio. Committee members then vote on the nominee’s suitability for the position. Once the 27 nominees have been endorsed, Parliament as a whole votes whether or not to approve the entire team.

Curious Possibly. But also I think we appreciate the fact that AZ will be supplied on a no profit basis because that is the deal with Oxford Uni. I vaguely remember reading that AZ weren't actually the first choice manufacturer. Weren't Merck on the list? Anyway it was AZ who offered the best deal including the no profit thing.

I'm sure AZ will benefit somehow from the deal but nothing like they would if they sold at a profit. And they were also willing to take the risk that the vaccine might not work, but still push ahead with development and setting up of manufacturing plants.

@Avondklok

Too much hyperbole - stealing vaccines, ripping up the GFA etc, neither of which are remotely true. The British press are encouraging this. News in Belgium tonight is that AZ will provide another 9 mio,vaccines shortly.

True in some ways. But the British tabloid press is not UK govt or people.

I will add though there is inflammatory talk coming out of the EU by officials:

eutoday.net/news/politics/2021/eu-uk-trade-war

So it's not one way.

Yes, 6 months is what they say. But you still.wouldnt leave doses languishing on a shelf waiting, would you?

@CuriousaboutSamphire

I just went back and listened to that bit again.

EU believes that AZ gave away EU doses in the past few weeks.

That's the opinion that started this off isn't it, not a fact.

Those doses were sent prior to the EU having passed AZ for use. In a pandemic nobody is going to stockpile limited shelf life vaccines for a month or two waiting for a customer to make up their mind.

I suspect that's where the real issue lies.

Yes. My aim in posting was to show how it is being reported here. Very different perspective.

As for the EU approval of AZ vaccine, the video states that the contract had required AZ to have doses ready to deliver as soon as approval was granted. But as soon as approval was done, that was when AZ said “oh, we can only give you about 1/4th of what we promised would be ready”

There was no “making up of mind” the contract was agreed and mind made up in August.

Both sides are behaving irresponsibly. We do need to stop and think at some point about the sort of relationship we would like to have with each other going forward.

And yes wasp AZ were an odd choice (not an existing vaccine manufacturer) but we're immediately on board with the not for profit basis that Oxford were set on.

I wonder if that is as well known outside the UK?

There's no reason for it to be as AZ wasn't a preferred vaccine for much of the time.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Yes, 6 months is what they say. But you still.wouldnt leave doses languishing on a shelf waiting, would you?

That’s not the issue though, the issue is that while U.K. is getting more doses per week than they originally ordered, EU is getting only half the doses they ordered for this quarter. AZ knew since August that they’d need to make around 65 million doses for Jan-Mar 2021.

You realise Ireland consists of more than the politicians?!

You can both be highly critical of the weak position the Irish administrations are in and intensely dislike their pro-EU jobs for the boys attitude but at the same time still love Ireland and its people. Wow ... as if people are unable to tell the difference? that's EU mono track minded people unable to expand their thinking.

If an Irish person said they don't like Jeremy Corbyn and Momentum, then that expands to : they don't like any English people...ha ha! ridiculous.

Yesterday I posted I hoped whole of Ireland would be getting the vaccine first before our roll out is considered "done". Lots if Irish wouldn't want it, fair enough, but I would hope it's offered as we are close in lots more ways than the pro-EU Irish brigade would like.

It is distasteful to me to see the Irish pro-EU politicians makes them look very, very weak and it's embarrassing to see them defend the EU's actions Friday as "ah, it's nothing!"

That isn't true, it's something - it's the EU showing their colours and it is the weak position Ireland have always been in as regards the EU- they joined because UK did - they had to really.

EU doesn't want small states - it wants to become the United States of Europe over time - doesn't like nationalism etc doesn't want Scotland - doesn't want to start up the talk of Spanish regions etc wanted to split away.

So I don't have any illusions of what Ireland and Scotland really represent to the EU and the Irish politicians do not have my respect. Not slagging Ireland the country off....yawn.

@PlanDeRaccordement.

Thanks for the info.

I listened to the video. I missed where the France24 journalist said AZ gave away EU supply to the UK. No disrespect but what evidence did he provide?

Sorry but the panel was some obscure journalists from the France24, Daily Beast and somewhere else. Don't get me wrong I liked the link as it gives insight to other POVs but it doesn't seem to substantial.

Indeed though, only AZ can clarify what went on and why.

It's not that different from how we got our first doses though. Ready to go as soon as it is passed isn't the same as all ordered doses ready and waiting. And again, the UK response to delays, factory issues etc was very, very different.

All we know for certain is that there was a timing difference and a completely different expectation.

The EU response to manufacturing issues was to suspect lies and skulduggery. To insist on holding to the letter of a contract the speaker didn't have proper knowledge of.

And, again as I said ages ago upthread, the pace of supply will be as 'lumpy' for the EU as it is for the UK. But AZs CEO has said they will catch up and not miss the deadline, not even the spring one.

And already they have added a few million doses. So they are getting there (and nobody has suggested they were stolen form the UK supply), the lumpy production is working.

Did we have a weekly supply contract?

That's not what I understood.

@Floppywin I’m a late entrant and have read the whole thread. I saw you only said ‘the Irish’ or ‘Ireland’ never any of their politicians. So I don’t see why I or anyone else reading this would think you meant a politician? Generally if someone says ‘the Scottish’ / ‘Scotland’ they mean the Scottish or Scotland. When they say Nicola Sturgeon they mean Nicola. Which Irish politician did you mean specifically and why did you say Ireland/the Irish in your posts if you weren’t talking about the country?

Landar personally I'm just surprised the Irish government aren't vocally annoyed. That's not to say I think the Irish are stupid.

I'd be astounded at any government who had such a threat against a policy (GFA in this case) and just shrugged and said "but they didn't - so ok".

It's nothing to do with the nationality. All to do with the action.

It seems to be a fact that some doses were indeed delivered from the EU to the UK (see here www.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-britain-astrazenec-idUKKBN28I1NH), but it's very unclear how much that actually was.
As for not stockpiling waiting for approval: Can anybody explain to me why AZ was approved in the UK at the end of last year (and then apparently shipped out from the EU), but the company only applied for EU approval to the EMA on January 12th so there was no chance for the EU to approve much earlier than they did?

@itsgettingweird,

I think Irish politicians likely did get alarmed and annoyed but, aside from phone calls and being diplomatic in the press, what could they do? Ireland is a smaller fish in a great EU pond.

@itsgettingweird I thought Boris threatened to use Article 16 a few weeks ago? I think if I remember correctly it was barely discussed as it didn’t happen. This is the same. It was in a draft statement. Draft literally means subject to revision not approved etc. I think that’s why outside the U.K. this isn’t getting as much attention and the outrage that posters here are looking for hasn’t happened.as a politician you’ve to pick your battles. A phone call meant the EU revoked activating it. An EU MEP said it was a mistake and shouldn’t have happened. What do you think Irish politicians have to gain in this situation from being vocally annoyed? Something bad might have happened. It didn’t. The EU admitted it was a mistake. A few weeks ago Boris threatened to activate it. He didn’t, that’s fine the Irish government didn’t get up in arms. The DUP seem very keen to have it triggered too.

As for not stockpiling waiting for approval: Can anybody explain to me why AZ was approved in the UK at the end of last year (and then apparently shipped out from the EU), but the company only applied for EU approval to the EMA on January 12th so there was no chance for the EU to approve much earlier than they did?

The politico.eu article linked to by @DamnUserName21 on the previous page states that, for the Pfizer approval, the EMA wanted the data presented much more 'tidily' than the MHRA required, which meant preparing the submission took longer. I don't know, but it seems a reasonable guess that the EMA wanted similar from AZ.

@Utterlybutterly8

According to this, Belgium has the worst death rate in the world per million of population. I was surprised by that - am I reading it right?

www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

UK is third.

Excluding San Marino (absolutely tiny country landlocked within Italy), yes Belgium has seen the worst death rates. The UK is fourth on that list, Slovenia third.

The UK is 23rd in the cumulative cases per million list. Some of the 22 above it are tiny countries like San Marino, Andorra and Liechtenstein but the list also includes states such as Spain, Portugal, Netherlands and USA while France and Austria are not too far behind the UK. Bear in mind that the UK is 10th on the list of tests per million (Denmark being the only significant European state in the other 9) so our testing has captured a large number of cases which would have gone undetected in other countries.

So case-wise, the UK wasn't that much different from many other European nations but there's no hiding that the confirmed death rate has been bad. How accurate is it though? How do you define a "confirmed Covid death"? Most countries had their own definitions. Looking at excess mortality figures, Spain was very badly hit in the early stages and from July onwards was once again above the UK's rate. I'd say that Spain's Covid death rate was worse than the confirmed Covid death figures show.

TLDR: The pandemic has been shit for most countries in Europe. The UK was bad but it was no means an outlier.