What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

[Frazzled2207]

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

If it were all down to manufacturing issues why is U.K. doing far more than original scheduled?

I heard an interview with Professor Bell a few weeks ago. Initial production was lower than expected because of the same yield problems they've had in Belgium but the production target was 2 million doses per week, which they now seem to have achieved. He was confident that once all production issues were ironed out that it would be possible to produce up to 5 million vaccines per week.

It will be interesting to see if vaccines were shipped from Belgium to the UK. I read somewhere that the "raid" (I suspect it was more a delegation of calm inspectors) on the Belgium factory included scrutiny of export documentation. Given the amount of very public fuss that has been made it seems quite unlikely that the EU wouldn't have disclosed any evidence they found to support this claim. It might also have made their decision to trigger A16 slightly more understandable and less embarrassing.

[quote Landarmygirls]@itsgettingweird I thought Boris threatened to use Article 16 a few weeks ago? I think if I remember correctly it was barely discussed as it didn’t happen. This is the same. It was in a draft statement. Draft literally means subject to revision not approved etc. I think that’s why outside the U.K. this isn’t getting as much attention and the outrage that posters here are looking for hasn’t happened.as a politician you’ve to pick your battles. A phone call meant the EU revoked activating it. An EU MEP said it was a mistake and shouldn’t have happened. What do you think Irish politicians have to gain in this situation from being vocally annoyed? Something bad might have happened. It didn’t. The EU admitted it was a mistake. A few weeks ago Boris threatened to activate it. He didn’t, that’s fine the Irish government didn’t get up in arms. The DUP seem very keen to have it triggered too.[/quote]
Landar If Boris what the EU have done and threatened it in a fit of rage and Irish government just shrugged and said "oh well he didn't" I'd think the same thing.
I do think they need to stand up for themselves both sides of the Irish boarder to prevent being exploited by either party. The last thing I want to see is governments feeling it's stated for their position to keep quiet. That's a dangerous place to be.

I feel the same about the smaller countries in EU who often have less of a voice than Germany or France and have to toe the EU line. I feel it's always a precarious place for any country to rely on others for what they need.

I wasn't a leaver. But I was concerned about whether we did rely on eu too much or were too bound by their decisions about what should happen.

I'm still undecided if Brexit was or wasn't a good thing!

@FOJN

Reposted from upthread. Some AZ stock came from Netherlands and Germany. What it means...I don't know.

www.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-britain-astrazenec-idUKKBN28I1NH

Try this for conspiracy theories: Phizer tried to overtake AZ in 2014. Hmmm, wonder if this relates to AZs bad press...

DamnUserName21

Thanks, should have taken the time to catch up on the thread before posting!

Reposted from upthread. Some AZ stock came from Netherlands and Germany. What it means...I don't know.

I think we've known for a while that initial UK AZ stocks came from the EU. Maybe the UK-AZ contract stated this would happen if the UK plants had issues? Maybe the Oxford Uni-AZ contract insisted on that happening? But now the UK is producing all its own AZ supplies anyway.

I have seen nothing stating that EU manufacturing plants would only supply the EU on the MN contract threads and presumably the 'best endeavours' clause means that the EU can't claim that they should be?

@waspnest

I haven't either re EU plants only serving the EU but, personally, don't feel this would be the case.
It would nice if AZ could clarify things a bit further.

Phizer tried to overtake AZ in 2014. Hmmm, wonder if this relates to AZs bad press...

That is some conspiracy theory! Thank god the takeover didn't go ahead. Unfortunately now AZ have become a player in the vaccine industry the vultures will be circling again. I'd love to buy up some of their shares to prevent that from happening (not that it would prevent it).

I've just read a report saying that Merck were on the point of signing a contract with Oxford Uni but Matt Hancock vetoed it because he believed it would make us beholden to the US and he didn't trust Trump not to blockade drugs!

I find the whole story fascinating.

not drugs, vaccines.

Was that the Guardian article? If so, I thought that article was really enlightening.

I find the whole story fascinating.

Me too!!

I think it was in a Sky news article. Would you like a link?

Sure. I'll send you what I read.

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/29/we-had-to-go-it-alone-how-the-uk-got-ahead-in-the-covid-vaccine-race

Here;

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-rejected-contracts-and-a-hollywood-movie-how-uk-struck-deal-to-guarantee-vaccine-supply-12204044

Oh I think I read that when you posted it on another thread thank you.

I'm definitely going to bed earlier tonight!

I am the citizen of another EU country although I am also a British citizen.

There is a lot of anger at AZ for not fulfilling the order as contracted across Europe. We don’t know for sure what the issue is, but it’s very concerning. As a dual citizen living in the Uk, I am very concerned at all the nationalism and “stealing our vaccines” nonsense. The EU paid for their vaccines too and have a contractual right to them.

Overall both the EU and UK will end up with a surplus of vaccines but people will die until we can stop this pandemic. So of course people want to be vaccinated ASAP.

Ahhh, read it. Wow. Hancock learned from his mistakes and pulled out all stops.
Thanks for posting.

As a European citizen I am quite bemused by the strength of feeling there is here from British (non-EU) citizens about the EU vaccine plan, and by the insistence of what EU citizens should be feeling about that plan.

I am still baffled how AZ managed to sort out their yelild and production issues at their EU sites so quickly.
I believe the az Europe sites were meant to also produce other countries outside of Europe until factories in other continents were set up.
I wonder when they raided Belgian site tue they found the evidence they were looking for that proved their point as they didn't release the evidence.

By end of the year we should hopefully all have lots vaccines.
However feb and March feel crucial
America has passed a law no vaccines leave America until their orders fulfilled.
If the UK just had rely on az in uk no phizer or moderna we would be 2 months behind in our vaccination schedule not sure that means too 4 groups or top 9.
Uk az can upscale and can produce 2 million a week I assume 5million a week is a aim that Tom Bell said the eu production sites would manage.

To put into context
Uk ordered 1million az vaccines.
No idea how much we had or delivered I assume just in time production no backstocks.
If you look at how many we vaccinate so far that includes phizer over million 1st doses.
The press says we awaiting another 3.5milliom phizer so di we assume we already had 3.5 million phizer and uk has so far received 7million in total out of 4million we ordered before EU compared to 200million order Europe has placed.
Then there's moderna we only ordered 7million eu ordered 80 million that's delayed too uk March and reduced deliveries in Europe mid Feb.

Its quite possible behind scenes the uk factory will start shipping to Europe .
Its still possible eu to delay other countries getting their phizer.

www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-55879345?__twitter_impression=true

theconversation.com/what-is-behind-the-eus-dispute-with-astrazeneca-over-covid-19-vaccines-154161

www.biospace.com/article/european-commission-raids-astra-zeneca-s-belgian-vaccine-plant/

@CayrolBaaaskin

I am the citizen of another EU country although I am also a British citizen.

There is a lot of anger at AZ for not fulfilling the order as contracted across Europe. We don’t know for sure what the issue is, but it’s very concerning. As a dual citizen living in the Uk, I am very concerned at all the nationalism and “stealing our vaccines” nonsense. The EU paid for their vaccines too and have a contractual right to them.

Overall both the EU and UK will end up with a surplus of vaccines but people will die until we can stop this pandemic. So of course people want to be vaccinated ASAP.

^ Absolutely this!

And it's not about UK-manufactured vaccines being reserved for the UK, and EU manufactured vaccines being manufactured for the EU. The process of producing vaccines is extremely complex and many AZ vaccines go out from their UK plants to Germany to be bottled (vials need to be irradiated in some way I think before being filled) and then come back to UK again. And many of the drug companies involved employ a mix of different nationalities in a mix of different locations in different countries (in case anyone thinks otherwise).

Also, one thing I am picking up from the European press is that the EU’s approach in adopting ‘conditional authorization’ for vaccine rollouts against the UK’s ‘emergency-use authorization’ could be a major issue. As far as I understand it, the UK produced vaccines are delayed by needing further authorization at some point in the process before being shipped to the EU where the "conditional" authorization standards are higher and harder to meet than the UK's "emergency" authorization. Of course if the UK and the EU ultimately come to the same conclusion about the safety levels of vaccines then the authorization method shouldn't really matter: but I wonder if it is this issue that is causing the supply delay from the AZ side?

Is this a different kind of authorisation ie on safety to

Deciding who's placed the order and deciding to export out of Europe when the eu order is short?

The English language news in Finland doesn't talk much at all about this, just that vaccine roll-out is delayed because AZ has cut supply, and talking about whether Finland can help with production to speed things up. The only mention of Britain is that the Brits are vaccinating over 65s with it so we should too, it would be stupid not to. No ranting about the UK or connecting it with Brexit. Finnish language news might tell a different story though, I just can't be arsed to read it.

I've read that link to Sky News on Hancock and Astrazenica, and have a new respect for Hancock

For EU citizens attitudes to the vaccine debacle - there will obviously be a variety of opinions but there is an interesting comment piece in The Times. I have linked to it in case anyone has a subsciption (I do even though I am left of centre - I can't be the only one?), for others I am afraid it is behind a pay wall. It is by Peter Tiede, chief political reporter for Bild

"Ursula von der Leyden's mess has disgraced Europe"

Gist of it/ excerpts:

"Oh, how we Germans made fun of those strange Brexit birds with the weird Euro-populist Boris Johnson at their head...Well, they'll soon see what they're left with. Without Europe. All alone.

Now we see it. All of us - 83 million Germans, and all of Europe - undersupplied with vaccines, left lagging behind not only the US and Canada but also Britain! Of all the people it was Johnson who got it right....

And we? We have done everything wrong...Germany, of all countries!..We screwed it up. As a result, Poland and Hungary are already wondering what on earth the EU is all about.

Von der Leyden started a dispute with the vaccine supplier Astrazenica, which was supposed to look daredevilish but was just dumb. She has disgraced Europe.

As Germany's defence minister she had already failed miserably in the procurement of helicopters, aircraft and weapons. Angela Merkel ordered her away to the European Commission. Just as Europe has been doing for decades with its discarded political personnel...."

It pulls no punches and doesn't go easy on the hyperbole...and by posting it I am not saying I agree with it, however this thread has given the overall impression that EU citizens are pretty sanguine about the whole vaccine debacle and wonder why the UK are so 'obsessed'. I just thought that this commentary was an interesting counterpoint - although it may well be a minority perspective within the EU, who knows

Also from today's Times:

During a “people’s PMQs” session at Downing Street recorded yesterday the prime minister said that he wanted Europe and the rest of the world to receive vaccinations “at the same time” as Britain, insisting that “there’s no point one country on its own getting vaccinated”.

“Britain, the UK, we can’t think of this just as a project for us and us alone,” he said. “The most important thing about the Oxford vaccine is it obviously can be distributed at room temperature, which is great, but it’s also being distributed at cost around the world.

“We want to make sure as many people across the whole of the world, across Europe, across the whole world, get access to vaccines and we’re massively funding. The UK has put hundreds of millions into the international vaccine alliance, into Covax.”

Pleased to hear the Boris said that. I’d be intrigued to hear if Az will now manufacture some in the UK for the EU- if it doesn’t affect our targets and plans I have no issue with this at all. Interesting that our government seem to be quite coy about it. I can see how some people would object if in fact we were sending some to the EU.

Blair was on sky yesterday saying that “no way” would the UK “pause” its own programme to allow others to catch up though. Rather, the sooner we sort our own supply out the sooner we’ll be in a position to help the rest of the world, and I’m very hopeful that we will

@Frazzled2207

Pleased to hear the Boris said that. I’d be intrigued to hear if Az will now manufacture some in the UK for the EU- if it doesn’t affect our targets and plans I have no issue with this at all. Interesting that our government seem to be quite coy about it. I can see how some people would object if in fact we were sending some to the EU.

Blair was on sky yesterday saying that “no way” would the UK “pause” its own programme to allow others to catch up though. Rather, the sooner we sort our own supply out the sooner we’ll be in a position to help the rest of the world, and I’m very hopeful that we will

Every politicians is playing to their domestic audience as is the media ours is very uk American centric we seldom hear about other countries.

On the 1 hand if we publicly said we giving eu vaccines now from uk factory we might be seen as kind by rest of Europe.
Or they could just spin it uk giving back 4million they claim we stole.
Theres 9 top vaccination groups the target for top 4 is mid Feb and we possibly on track meet that.
If we started giving away vaccines after top 4 some uk may not be happy.
Especially as other groups still shielding.
Lots of 40 to 50s in hospital
Argument keyworker like police and teachers as so many calls open schools and labour seem think just vaccinating teachers is right so they can open ASAP.
Not sure saying we cabt vaccinate this group because Europe screwed up so we had to give them some..
Then alternate point of view is we being weak and rewarding poor behaviour.

After all it was eu that made their spat with az very public.
Raided their factory as they didn't believe their excuse.
Dragged uk into it saying we stole 4million and they should have uk supplies to deal with their short fall.
Publishing the document
Enacting articles 16 and risking not just peace in in Ireland but uk trade deal as its not yet been ratified.
Threatening to withhold phizer I feel is genuine threat not just some ranting by German mep.
They already introduced that mechanism if checking and authorising vaccines out of 3rd countries outside of Europe .
Australia are very concerned as they yet to set up manufacturing phizer closer to home their initial doses are from Europe.
As our ours and Canada and possibly Israel.
Threatening az with court when quarter 1 not up yet.
Time is of the essence.

I fear its a back room deal to get the 3.8 Million phizer we awaiting so that people can get 2nd doses as no ones keen on pick a mix mix and match brand doses.
So yes this extra 9million I imagine coming from uk factory.
Unless AZ reveal the miracle that they managed to fix yeild and production issues so quickly.
Or India secretly helped them out.
Long term az want to produce sites all over the world but think only eu India and UK initially.

The issue is we all need vaccines soon as possible and only 3 are approved and able to be delivered right now uts ohizer and az only most of eu orders still in trial stages.
Johnson and Johnson later maybe summer .
Valeneva and norovax later in 2021 but eu not placed orders yet.
They getting some reduced order modern in Feb before uk schedule of march and we ordered 1st just with Moderna.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/uk-now-ordered-407million-covid-23419775#source=push

www.thesun.co.uk/news/13905898/britain-covid-vaccines-friends-neighbours/?utm_medium=browser_notifications&utm_source=pushly