What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

[Frazzled2207]

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

@Avondklok

My take on it, as someone who negotiates commercial contracts for a living, is that the lawyers on both sides are presumably not stupid, there would have been many, many discussions on a contract of this size, most likely documented, and that quantities and delivery dates would have been hot on the agenda given the circumstances. It's strange that nearly 6 months after signature that AZ announce they can't deliver what they presumably promised. This was actually in the news some weeks ago, it didn't all happen on Friday. Fair enough that production issues are to blame, but I think the EU suspect some funny business somewhere hence why this has all kicked off suddenly,

Indeed, and that should be investigated by the EU and AZ officials and lawyers. But that's not the same as invoking (or threatening to) an article, after years of negotiating to prevent a hard border, in what seems a fit of pique, and by not notifying the relevant parties involved beforehand. The Commission knows it screwed up, hence, the quick retraction.

Suspecting is one thing.

Acting against a 3rd party totally out with your contract is another.

Doing so without knowing what your contract actually said was just inconceivable!

That's the Best Effort part that was denied by the EU!

I totally agree that the A16 is a major mistake. But no one even had heard of it when Boris mentioned it recently for similar reasons. This is mostly a media induced shitstorm. I'd argue that it's the U.K. that have caused an issue for the island of Ireland and not the EU.

@Waspnest

Even the threat of invoking Article 16 (and especially threatening it without the knowledge of the Irish government) is a massive deal. Which is why the EU are now saying 'but it didn't happen, it didn't actually happen!' The fact that the threat was made is incredibly serious and unfortunately it's now given the DUP a valid reason to kick up a fuss.

Anyone who does not understand the seriousness of the situation really doesn't understand the issues.

Agree, so long as you feel similarly about Boris when he threatened to invoke article 16 two weeks ago. Unlike the EU, he never retracted his threat or apologised or said he made a mistake.

“Prime Minister Boris Johnson has issued a stark warning to Brussels, saying that if the current port chaos problems with trade to Northern Ireland persist, he will have no hesitation in invoking Article 16 of the Brexit protocol, and simply tear up the agreement relating to making checks on goods and vehicles compulsory at the ports.”
www.euroweeklynews.com/2021/01/14/boris-says-he-will-have-no-hesitation-invoking-article-16/

And I think the EU suddenly realised they would be very short of vaccine, thought 'shit, this makes us look bad what can we do about it? I know, let's use our might and force AZ to give us more'.

But neither of us know the truth.

Regarding the EU-AZ contract, there are a few threads about it on MN, with detailed lawyer input so I suggest you look at them for the ins and outs of it.

@Avondklok

My take on it, as someone who negotiates commercial contracts for a living, is that the lawyers on both sides are presumably not stupid, there would have been many, many discussions on a contract of this size, most likely documented, and that quantities and delivery dates would have been hot on the agenda given the circumstances. It's strange that nearly 6 months after signature that AZ announce they can't deliver what they presumably promised. This was actually in the news some weeks ago, it didn't all happen on Friday. Fair enough that production issues are to blame, but I think the EU suspect some funny business somewhere hence why this has all kicked off suddenly,

👏 👏 Yes

@Avondklok

I totally agree that the A16 is a major mistake. But no one even had heard of it when Boris mentioned it recently for similar reasons. This is mostly a media induced shitstorm. I'd argue that it's the U.K. that have caused an issue for the island of Ireland and not the EU.

From what I understand, BoJo threatened to invoke it. The EU actually made the decision to actually do it.

www.politico.eu/article/eu-drops-irish-border-plan-coronavirus-vaccine-exports/

Two different things.

The important word there is

‘if’

@PlanDeRaccordement

It they didn't DO IT. It was in the draft legislation

As I said before, BJ said to the EU that he would have no hesitation in invoking A16 if commerce was negatively affected. That was part and parcel of the usual bluster.

The EU said they were invoking A16, without discuss with most member states and with no discussion with the countries directly affected. That was said, it was being invoked, until saner minds intervened.

There is an enormous difference.

Quite frankly I find it insulting that the U.K. are acting like Ireland is a clueless stupid idiot who has no thoughts of our own but then it’s not surprising that this insulting attitude is coming from posters in the U.K. there is form for it after all. I’m done now with this thread so continue insulting Ireland after I’m gone I couldn’t care less!

I wouldn't worry about it. There is a real defensiveness about a lot of those posts. Trying to drag Ireland down because they used to feel better than us but now a lot of the world looks at the UK like . They are grasping onto this vaccine thing because they have done so poorly not just with Covid to date but with pretty much everything in recent years.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

As I said before, BJ said to the EU that he would have no hesitation in invoking A16 if commerce was negatively affected. That was part and parcel of the usual bluster.

The EU said they were invoking A16, without discuss with most member states and with no discussion with the countries directly affected. That was said, it was being invoked, until saner minds intervened.

There is an enormous difference.

Big difference and EXACTLY this!!!

@Avondklok I was thinking exactly the same thing, surely there must be emails confirming the EU knew they were second in line for orders after the UK? I can’t imagine AZ just suddenly said they can’t deliver the order, there must have been ongoing correspondence? There must be written evidence, if the EU were completely kept in the dark and was a complete shock and surprise announcement,then this was very much wrong and down to AZ for not communicating the issues in advance. We will see.

The EU announced their intention without even contacting the TS of ROI.
He had no fecking idea!!!!

Good grief!!!!

I'd imagine that given the situation where some person is asked to put together a draft of what needs to happen to put into place these new reporting rules, they quite accurately surmised that A16 might be needed here (it's all new after all)

@Avondklok

It they didn't DO IT. It was in the draft legislation

But it was in legislation... bit different to so-called threats reported by media. I'm sure even a contract lawyer can appreciate that.

Added to which, the Commission did not even consult the EU member it would affect the most, which is bewildering.

Yet it was announced... was a first response.

No matter what they thought was happening with AZ that was precipitous!

It was obviously the wrong thing to do... which is why it was scrapped very quickly!

Agree, so long as you feel similarly about Boris when he threatened to invoke article 16 two weeks ago. Unlike the EU, he never retracted his threat or apologised or said he made a mistake.

Yes I think he was reckless. I believe he threatened it because the new protocol was stopping food from being transported from GB to NI whereas this is about goods travelling from RoI to NI.

I don't know enough to comment on the situation because I don't understand the protocol, but the DUP were calling for it so it least they weren't left in the dark.

@Waspnest
Yes, but while NI was in dark when EU threatened A16, the ROI was in dark when Boris threatened A16. So it’s pretty even.

@Aloethere

Quite frankly I find it insulting that the U.K. are acting like Ireland is a clueless stupid idiot who has no thoughts of our own but then it’s not surprising that this insulting attitude is coming from posters in the U.K. there is form for it after all. I’m done now with this thread so continue insulting Ireland after I’m gone I couldn’t care less!

I wouldn't worry about it. There is a real defensiveness about a lot of those posts. Trying to drag Ireland down because they used to feel better than us but now a lot of the world looks at the UK like . They are grasping onto this vaccine thing because they have done so poorly not just with Covid to date but with pretty much everything in recent years.

Well, yes, you are right. The vaccine is something the UK has gotten right in what seems like a long time so, of course, Brits are proud of that. Who wouldn't be?!

As for the UK seeing Ireland as a 'clueless stupid idiot' it's a real shame some Irish feel we think that way. I'd argue it's the Commission that feels that way rather than the UK govt but hey ho.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

As I said before, BJ said to the EU that he would have no hesitation in invoking A16 if commerce was negatively affected. That was part and parcel of the usual bluster.

The EU said they were invoking A16, without discuss with most member states and with no discussion with the countries directly affected. That was said, it was being invoked, until saner minds intervened.

There is an enormous difference.

The EU Commission don’t have to ask the member states to take such decisions. It is part of what they were elected to do.

Boris is a fucking eejit.
He said he’d use A16 if he needed to.
Like politicians threaten their nuclear option. Utter stupidly and willy waving.

But the EU put matters in place. Without discussion.
That’s like getting the nuclear codes.

The EU Commission don’t have to ask the member states to take such decisions. It is part of what they were elected to do.

As it relates to the NI protocol, the Commission might not have to but it should have notified the involved parties.

The Commission is not an elected body.

I find it all a bit convenient that this all kicked off just as EU were about to announce their approval of AZ vaccine. In Belgium, the news says "Yay, vaccine". In U.K. "EU wants to steal OUR vaccine". The production issues have been known about for a few weeks.