What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

[Frazzled2207]

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

@BunsyGirl
She sidestepped.
What the rules say is we will sell you a pre contracted amount of drug, as we did in 2019. We have identified 147products that, due to Covid, the UK will need more of in 2020 (eg. An anti clotting agent in ICU). Whilst we recognise that your need for this drug may have increased, since your ICUs are full of Covid patients too, we will allow you your 2019/2020 expected amount. Any surplus that may occur, is for the UK only.
The ban wasn't brought in because of a 10/20% increased demand - and the UK are in no position to cry foul at other countries protecting their citizens.

To summarise the Prof doesn't agree with the idea of silo production being relevant - which is what the UK contract has ie their production isn't affected by manufacture for the EU contract.

Maybe if you think of the Novavax that's looking promising - will be produced in the UK but we are second in the queue - an order to the US is first - it is committed to first before we get our order. EU still negotiating and no order put in yet, sound familiar?

It would be the same as UK refusing to allow Novovax to honour their first order to US - and demand export control until we receive our order which we know we're second in line for.

I copied info yesterday from CEO of AZ and he says the EU were clear when they put their order in that there was a pre-existing contract with guaranteed delivery to UK so all they could do was go for a best efforts contract.

The prof says numerous time quick reading of this contract - he obviously isn't too clued up on the UK side of things.

To summarise the Prof doesn't agree with the idea of silo production being relevant - which is what the UK contract has ie their production isn't affected by manufacture for the EU contract.

Maybe if you think of the Novavax that's looking promising - will be produced in the UK but we are second in the queue - an order to the US is first - it is committed to first before we get our order. EU still negotiating and no order put in yet, sound familiar?

It would be the same as UK refusing to allow Novovax to honour their first order to US - and demand export control until we receive our order which we know we're second in line for.

I copied info yesterday from CEO of AZ and he says the EU were clear when they put their order in that there was a pre-existing contract with guaranteed delivery to UK so all they could do was go for a best efforts contract.

The prof says numerous time quick reading of this contract - he obviously isn't too clued up on the UK side of things.

wow.....misses..... the..... point......again.... I decided yesterday it's intentional, so I shall leave you to it.

Thanks. Same as other perspectives then! I was hoping for something more details.

I suspect it will take a detailed timeline, including the publishing of the UK contract to unravel it.

But so far AZ seem to have been upfront, they said there was a best efforts clause, the EU denied it (UvdL again?). But it is there and, as far as I can tell, it and the other clauses say what AZ said they did, including the one about not leaping to legal action as a first response!

Summer the UK aren't crying anything.

In a rare display of diplomacy BJ has been silent on the issue.

In an even more rare display of calm and common sense The Goviot has reported that after discussion with UvdL there will be no disruption to supplies.

Are european newspapers saying differently? Are we not being told about a public haranguing?

EU don't have a leg to stand on legally.

There isn't really any issue as there are naturally delays in production - same as UK had three months ago with AZ, it works out and improves.

EU will get millions of AZ doses in Feb - nothing dramatic will happen out of this other than the EU have shot themselves in the foot. People will be backing out of the room from them in future.

Moderna have delays in Feb for EU.

Pfizer had delays, but now sorted.

Our government don't need to worry as they know what they've signed and they are just trying not to laugh too openly at the tantrum in front of them. Being polite and waiting for it to die down. Parent says chicken pie for dinner, child says No! has a tantrum, rings school and says my parents are treating me terrible and puts a photo on the internet of their chicken pie.

Parent doesn't need to react - it's dinner time and either eat it or not that's what's on the table. Nothing changes from tantrums, does it?

It's all just very, very embarrasing for the EU and no one will trust them again for serious business. Sorry for anyone that thinks this will blow over. The effects won't start to play out for a while yet but the UK will do very well out of internationally and trust our legal system even more than they did previously.

A trading bloc that can retrospectively put rules in place and bad mouth a not for profit vaccine during a pandemic and then publish a contract, not to mention Ireland! None of it is in anyway acceptable - they have embarrassed themselves and exposed their lack of judgment (oh, and planning).

But no it isn't a really big deal - nothing has changed or will change from EU actions over the last week other than they look untrustworthy.

So whoever said why is there anger is misjudging it, it is appalling behaviour and shocking behaviour and that is what people are reacting to. I guess like all bullies they're hoping to make people angry and up the ante every time they don't get a reaction, until they go pop themselves and then they take delivery of their AZ vaccines in Feb(eat the chicken pie).

Embarrasing and shoddy way to treat EU citizens if they were hoping for the vaccine they do/don't want ...hard to know really - tastes good with gravy on.

I'm not worried about my 2nd dose of Pfizer, I guess the EU bullies are hoping we UK citizens are worrying - that's their objection and why it was for UK audience and not EU audience currently. Embarrassing for them, but not surprising - not angry. Think that poster mistakes bit of passion for anger...

@PlanDeRaccordement

Once again you are completely incorrect regarding the contracts.

And as for you, the French, having to cover a financial shortfall to the EU, pass me my violin.

[quote DesdemonaDryEyes]@PlanDeRaccordement

Once again you are completely incorrect regarding the contracts.

And as for you, the French, having to cover a financial shortfall to the EU, pass me my violin.[/quote]
Of course, UK always knows best. Here is your violin oh great Britannic Majesty. I’ll just go put some ice on my second black eye if that is acceptable to you.

you honestly think that as a tiny island we would have had better luck negotiating on our own?? Highly unlikely

My understanding is that the UK govt offered Ireland the chance to jointly procure vaccines on a two-island approach, but Ireland chose to go with the EU.

It is also the case that Ireland wanted to bring in Astra Zenaca vaccines to have them ready to roll out as soon as they were, approved but Brussels denied permission and said no.

Increasingly Ireland is looking like the lackey of Brussels.

There's a good interview on Andrew Marr this morning. I was quite shocked but the Irish really do seem to be very pro EU and careful not to criticise them.

Ireland is cravenly pro-EU to the point where they are now trying to gloss over the international humiliation of not being consulted by the EU before it reneged on the NI protocol.

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/31/france-germany-threaten-covid-astrazeneca-vaccine-shortageeu-uk

This article is really interesting, in that it suggests that the EU already realise that its first interpretation of the contract, which it proclaimed loudly all last week, is wrong. The article suggests acceptance that the U.K. factories are not obliged to service the EU, because the focus of the potential case is whether AZ diverted product out of the EU factories to the U.K.. Clearly, even if this was proven, you'd have to accept that the numbers are against the EU in terms of the whole of the shortfall. The shortfall is c.70m vaccines, whereas the U.K. has given 9m vaccines in total and lots of those will be Pfizer ones or AZ ones manufactured in the U.K. factory too, so really whilst any amount diverted from the EU would not be totally insignificant, it is really a very small amount of the total shortfall. The shortfall is largely a production issue due to the factory in the EU not yet being in the same place as the U.K. factory and the U.K. having priority over the U.K. factory in the U.K. AND EU contracts (it is pretty obviously the case to me from a simple reading of it and Belgian lawyers have confirmed in the media that this is likely the case).

Cheque Brittanique? Do me a favour. Structural differences between economies meant that the UK paid too much initially - hence the rebate

And thanks I have looked it up: "Supporters of the rebate argued that the distortion created by the rebate is minor compared to that created by the Common Agricultural Policy, which is expensive and has implications for free and fair trade in the EU. In addition, they point out that without the rebate, the UK would pay much more into the EU than comparably wealthy countries like France, due to structural differences between their economies.
As of 2004, France got more than twice as much CAP funds as the UK (22% of total funds compared to the UK's 9%) which in cash terms is a net benefit that France gets over and above what the UK got from the CAP of €6.37bn.

@Wildswim

you honestly think that as a tiny island we would have had better luck negotiating on our own?? Highly unlikely

My understanding is that the UK govt offered Ireland the chance to jointly procure vaccines on a two-island approach, but Ireland chose to go with the EU.

It is also the case that Ireland wanted to bring in Astra Zenaca vaccines to have them ready to roll out as soon as they were, approved but Brussels denied permission and said no.

Increasingly Ireland is looking like the lackey of Brussels.

Thanks - do you have links for these? I heard about both events but would like to read about them properly.

@Floppywin that’s a hilarious bit of storytelling there! It’s amazing how you and @Wildswim have these incredible insights into how Irish people feel and think - while conveniently ignoring that Irish support for EU membership is between 70-90% and actual Irish people on this thread have said they don’t feel how you are portraying.

If anything @floppywin you are the gaslighted. Irish people “ we are happy to be part of the EU” You “ no you’re not, you hate it you’re being abused, look at your black eye” Us “but we don’t have a black eye” you “ you do you just don’t know it you’re sad behind the eyes” 😂😂😂😂

Why did the Irish Times devote an editorial this week to attacking Boris Johnson? Why the obsession with the British? Why not hold your own government to account? It's baffling.

I must say I do feel uncomfortable with some of the comments re Ireland - it's a bit patronising to think that the nature of Ireland's relationship with the EU is any of the UK's business

@Wildswim

Why did the Irish Times devote an editorial this week to attacking Boris Johnson? Why the obsession with the British? Why not hold your own government to account? It's baffling.

But why do you care?

Half of my family are Irish - I'm English/Irish so I spend a lot of time there and seen all the changes, not all good in everyone's opinion at all.

people on this thread? huh! self-selecting bunch of EU supporters....

I'm in the same position as Floppywin, some of my closest family live in Ireland.

it's a bit patronising to think that the nature of Ireland's relationship with the EU is any of the UK's business

The relationship between UK, ROI, NI and EU will always be entertwined. For better or worse. It's all our business.

The EU officials are elected. Not sure what you are on about, especialky with half your Parliament, the House of Lords being not elected at all.

The European Parliament is elected but the European Commission certainly isn't, it is supposed to do what the Parliament tells it to do. So it is remarkable that Ursula VDL president of the Commission plus other officials appear to have gone off piste and threatened to invoke Article 16 without consulting at least the Irish government representatives.

I agree we should get rid of the HoL. There was talk of it once but obviously it didn't happen in the end.

why is it a threat to try keep EU produced vaccines in the EU but not a threat to keep U.K. produced vaccines in the U.K.? It can’t work both ways!

The UK doesn't want EU AZ vaccines, it has its own produced in the UK (now). It wants the Pfizer vaccines that it has ordered. It has a contract with Pfizer. The EU has a contract for AZ vaccines produced within the EU and then when AZ has fulfilled its UK order it can also supply the EU from UK factories which is fair enough.

I was a remainer. I guess I still am. Yes I think the EU behaved poorly over the AstraZeneca issue, and I was disgusted at some of the provocative comments from a few politicians from some EU countries, but it's all settled down now. Gove has now commented that the EU and Uk have 'reset' their relations, and I don't know, I just thing it might be more productive to draw a line under it and move on? Tempers will flare during a global pandemic

In or out of the EU - and yes I understand we are most definitely out, it behoves us to foster a positive relationship with neighbouring countries.

@Wildswim @Floppywin support for EU membership on Ireland is between 70-90% in independent polls undertaken between 2016-2019

So it seems your unhappy family members are the minority of eurosceptics. I’m sorry that doesn’t fit with your narrative @floppyswim

Quite frankly I find it insulting that the U.K. are acting like Ireland is a clueless stupid idiot who has no thoughts of our own but then it’s not surprising that this insulting attitude is coming from posters in the U.K. there is form for it after all. I’m done now with this thread so continue insulting Ireland after I’m gone I couldn’t care less!

@Wildswim

There's a good interview on Andrew Marr this morning. I was quite shocked but the Irish really do seem to be very pro EU and careful not to criticise them.

Ireland is cravenly pro-EU to the point where they are now trying to gloss over the international humiliation of not being consulted by the EU before it reneged on the NI protocol.

Yes "gloss over" is the wording I couldn't find! He almost looked uncomfortable when it was pointed out numerous times that A16 was a horrid move and threatened them. The reply was simply "but they didn't"

Felt very much like someone trying to argue it didn't matter that they held a gun at your head - because they didn't actually shoot and therefore your weren't harmed.